Bike project dilema

So here's my dilema.

MCN ran a series of articles a couple months back about blueprinting an engine. And that got me to thinking about doing a bike build-up (engine, suspension, etc.)

I have an '86 VFR700. Mechanically it's in great condition, but needs a little bit of cosmetic work.

Finding anything for this bike is hard, hard, hard. And then there's the issue of it being a big, top-heavy bike. It's never going to be as nimble as say, my wife's (mostly stock) HawkGT. It's just a different sort of animal.

So, while I *could* dig into it for more power (maybe swap in a 750 crank/rods/pistons, up the compression a tiny hair, give it a Motec unit with FI and aggressive timing), at most I'm going to get 100rwhp, and it's still going to be bike and heavy. Looking over the bike, it looks like getting the weight under 500lbs is going to be hard work, most of the weight is in the engine and frame.

So.. I could dump a ton of money into the project, but how much better of a bike could I get out of it? I could certainly get a more capable bike by just going out and buying a newer bike instead. Not as much fun of a project, but certainly doable.

Or, I could go half-way. I could swap to a newer VFR, where a certain level of upgrades are already present (radial tires, cartridge forks), and then have a much larger selection of parts at disposal for building the bike up with.

I love the bike, I love the character of the v4. But I have to wonder if I'd be happier starting from a 5th or 6th generation just to get a more modern base to play with.

If the 2nd gen VFR had the parts support that the HawkGT does, it wouldn't be a question. If I wanted to do this project with my wife's Hawk, I could find tons of options, and really create an awesome bike at the end of project. But A), it's her bike, not mine, I'm not allowed to even do maintenance on it, and B), it's not a VFR (although it's a hell of a fun bike).

I guess I feel that the 2nd gen VFR has been mostly forgotten, aside from some of us oddballs here on this forum. Whereas some of the other bikes are still very well supported in the aftermarket.

 

The question is " Do you want a project or do you want a faster/ more capable bike?" If you just want a better bike go buy a CBR and be happy. If your looking for a project, work on the 86' any gains you make will be through your sweat and ingenuity and will be ever so much more satisfying.

You are correct that a 5th or 6th gen would be easier, but where's the fun in that ?

 

I have a tricked out 94 and would certainly recommend one of those before I go 5th or 6th gen. Why bother trying to get fuel injection to work on the 86 when you can simply bore it to 837cc and go for some RC30 replica bodywork, CBR900 or 929 forks, wheels , maybe a SSSA etc?

 

Myself I would prefer a fuel injected bike over carbed just for the ease of tuning. 5th gens are great bike but I feel from what you have described you might be more happy with a SV or CBR, gixxer etc..

 

So would I Matt, but converting a carbed bike to fuel injection is another matter. Didn't you give that some thought at one point with your 500?

 

I did and then stepped back after learning how much money it would have taken.

 

right. The point i'm trying to make is your only limited to your imagination and resources. A while back a guy from Germany posted a pic of his 4th gen with the R1 swingarm, ohlins shock, custom exhaust, R1 front end and CBR600rr carbon fiber bodywork. He was also shooting for 140-150hp w/high comp pistons,gas flowed heads and overbore. Woody77's vfr doesn't look to be that bad a bike from the avatar. I'd find another cheapo V4 engine/frame and go from there. I suggested the 4th gen cause it was still more SPORT than sport TOUR like the 5th and 6th gen. All of the electronics/linked braking adds weight and complexity to those VFR's .

 

Go back into 3rd and 4th gen posts an look @ what viffer93 did to convert his VFR for track.

 

Im not disagreeing with you mybe I just interpreted what he was say wrong, I do agree the older bikes a sweet with some upgrades wheels,exhaust etc.. the 3rd & 4th gens are leaps and bounds more sporty then the newer ones but from what ive read he seems to be more of a rider than wanting to wrench.

 

I used to spend a LOT of money and time on vehicle modifications (cars and bikes). That was a long time ago, back in the days of bias ply tires and carburetors. The big difference between then and now (from my perspective) is that the effort produced significant increases in performance, on all fronts. Newer vehicles are so much better, and a lot more reliable.

Where I'm going with this is that if you really like an older model, go for it. The trade off is that the effort will produce limited returns, other than personal satisfaction, and time will make replacement parts even scarcer. But you already know all this; I'm just using slightly different words to say the same thing. :smile:

I would be inclined to find a newer model that needs work, provided that the frame was straight and that the engine/transmission were in good shape. As you pointed out, you would have the advantage of a "modern" foundation to build on; you wouldn't be spending a lot of effort trying to update a dinosaur.

 

rc24 - The bike just needs to have some fairing cracks on the left side repaired, and then the left fairing and the cowl repainted. Otherwise, it's in excellent shape. (which is one of the reasons I'm hesitant to dig too hard into this bike. This is a nice clean bike, one I'd almost rather keep mint.

As far as ride vs. wrench -- I love wrenching. But, I hate not being able to ride because I'm halfway through a project. As a result, whichever bike I end up using as a project would be a second bike. A BMW GS is the current contender for daily commuter (or maybe a Tiger).

One of the things that's honestly been frustrating with the 2nd gen is that any sort of substantial work requires a lot of custom fabrication. Something that while I have the skills to do it, I don't have ready access to lathe, mill, etc. So something like a triple-clamp for USD forks is either going to be something that I source ready-made in the aftermarket, or it needs to be something that I can have a machine-shop create for me (and then I have to find a machine-shop around here that I actually trust, the down side of being a machinist's son is that I have high standards).

Lgn001 actually reworded what's been going on in my head pretty well.

As far a EFI conversion, the 2nd-gens actually have something in their favor on this, they have a cam position sensor. Expensive project? oh hell yes. But then, a really fun project to get it working, especially if I went with something like a Motec unit, initially for spark, and later for FI. But much like doing a bunch of suspension work to the '86, it's in awfully nice condition to be doing that invasive sort of work... Maybe I can talk my wife into letting me have 3 bikes in the garage...

But one thing that I do love, is the V4 engine. Bike's that I'd consider as a project would be a VFR, a HawkGT, maybe an older Ducati Monster (that would be a money pit for sure). Something with a lot of character. The Hawk's ooze character, and there's tons of stuff available for them (and people that know how to fabricate parts for them). They're even still actively being raced (and winning against SV's and monsters at places like Daytona). And since my wife and I tore her bike down completely (replaced the transmission output shaft), I know it rather well inside and out, at this point. But.. It's not a V4 (although a VFR into a Hawk frame would make for an interesting (albiet unlikely to succeed) project, in an of itself. But before you go thinking that I like the Hawk better, what I really like about it is the weight.

So, for any generation VFR, really what is a reasonable expectation for weight loss?

Going over my 2nd gen, it seems like the bulk of the weight is the engine and frame, and that there's really not a lot to be had in the rest of the bike for lightening. Granted, I'm never going to remove the 100lbs in weight between the VFR and the Hawk. But then the RC30 was almost this heavy, too... (building up a replica RC30 is also a tempting project).

 

Seems to me you've narrowed it down on your own. Keep the 86 as is and get the bodywork sorted out over time. Purchase another VFR of your choosing to serve as a starting point for your project. My 94 sports a CBR900RR front end from handlebars to fender. No need to fabricate triple trees. Of course there are plenty of choices for front ends out there CBR's, RC51's, R1's, YZF's to name a few. While my bike originally had a CBR900RR swingarm on it, the cost for a custom fabrcated exhaust led me back to a SSSA. The sub frame is 900rr cut and welded to work with the RC45 bodywork, 900rr tach and speedo also to replicate the gauges on the RC45. You'd be surprised how much lighter it is too without all the unneccesary brackets, gauges, bodywork, etc from the vfr.

 

Honestly, that was one of the reasons for making this thread, so I could talk through it (both aloud and in my head at the same time). Much easier to call BS on my thoughts when I'm actually trying to frame them for explaining to other people.

But I think that's how I'm leaning (right now):

- Pick up the daily-driver bike
- Keep the '86 as a vintage bike (and in vintage shape)
- Pick up a project bike to start playing with (and figure out what exactly I want to get, and what I want to do with it).

 

rc24rc51 - Do you have any way of weighing your bike? Or at least estimating how much weigh you've pulled out of it? Thanks.

 

Not at the moment. But I'll see what I can do. FYI If you like Hawk GT's check out the Speedzilla.com forums Scroll down to the Honda (Hawk GT)section. Quite a few for sale there.

 

Nice work rc!

 

Ran the bike up to a recycler that has a big scale. With a full tank of fuel (1gal=6.25lbs) the bike weighed in @ exactly 480lbs.

 

So our bikes are pretty close in weight. Last time I weight mine it was 466a with only a gallon of fuel and the first time I did it it weight with full tank of fuel 497.

 

Those are pretty good weights... I need to get a real weight on my VFR. The parts VFR was weighed by the previous owner at 510 (dunno if that was full tank or not, though). That was for an '86 VFR (all stock) complete with center-stand.

Over the years, did the CoG get better centralized, or are the 5th gens just as top-heavy as the 2nd gens are?

 

510 seems pretty heavy for a 2nd gen. On the 5th gen instead of the valve train coming up through the center of the head they moved it to the far right side of the heads I assume that's what there purpose was to centralize everything. The bike feels light once its moving but at angles you can definitely tell there's alot of bike there top heavy yeah a little but for its size it turns really well.