Safety Switch Confusion

The neutral, sidestand, engine stop and clutch (when not in neutral) switches all disable the starter relay switch, when they are not in the correct position, or are faulty. The sidestand and engine stop switches will kill the spark, if opened when the engine is already running. This should be common knowledge for all modern bike riders.

The confusion begins when the manuals blame the loss of spark on the latter switches. If those switches are not functioning correctly, the starter will not even engage. If the starter is not working, how would you know that you don't have a spark? This makes no sense to me.

My logic tells me that if the engine is turning over, then the no spark issue can't be the fault of the safety switches. Am I wrong in thinking this?

:crazy:

 

I understand your confusion. You are right. but that kill switch can still be messed up. The hot wire could be touching ground if it has detached at the soldered joint. Or if it got pinched.
Part of the confusion is that they named the left handlebar switch, the clutch switch.
It has nothing to do with the clutch.

What happens is that when you pull in the clutch lever the small switch gets depressed allowing you to start the motorcycle even though it is in gear. This is so that if you stall your bike at a stoplight that you can quickly restart WITHOUT finding neutral first and getting hit from the rear by a car that is not paying attention.

How this works is that a wire from starter relay gets grounded. allowing you to start in gear.

THE NEUTRAL switch simply grounds also when the kickstand is down so you cannot move until the side stand is up or it kills the engine another way. I won't go into that.

You can operate the motorcycle without the so called clutch switch. Matter of fact many motorcycles were still that way in the 1980's. Of coarse you could not start the bike except in neutral. If the bike is stalling at stoplights you should not be riding it any way.

The engine stop switch is a wire that splits and goes from the starter button to the kill switch.
You can see it if you open the right handle bar switch and look at the wires.

To diagnose a starter is simple. Remove the positive wire from your starter on the bike.
Put the bike in neutral. Just get a car battery and jumper cable and hook the ground of a battery to the frame of the bike and touch the positive to the to the starter positive post on the motorcycle.
DO NOT USE the Motorcycle battery because it goes through the starter relay before it goes to the starter.

The starter should spin.

You are NOT going through the relay or any other circuit or switches.

So if the starter spins you can rule that out.

There is one other part but you need to check the wiring diagram on your particular bike.
It is a small relay. Very small . About 1/2 inch square. Just has a diode in it to keep 12 volts flowing only one direction. It is called a rectifier switch. It has one diode. (If your bike uses one.)

After you find it you can look in the manual and it will show you how to check it. It is a Simple test.

 

The clutch switch does have something to do with the clutch, it allows the starter motor to engage , in gear, when the clutch lever is pulled in........just like the op indicated.

 

So it should be called the CLUTCH LEVER ACTIVATED SWITCH because it still does not have anything to do with the clutch.

I would call it the IN GEAR START SWITCH . Just my opinion.

I always think things should be named for what they actually do.

I have my bike set up so that it will start with the clutch lever pulled in, in ANY gear. Just like motorcycles used to be. I can still leave the traffic light in second gear if it stalls. When you start a motorcycle in your garage don't you check to see if it is in neutral first?

Motorcycles do not need all those circuits if you just use the circuits in your own brain.

But some people just want to walk in the garage and hit the start button WITHOUT pulling in the clutch lever or checking the neutral light.
I do not know what to say about that.
If you pull in the clutch lever BEFORE you hit the start button then you have no worries. The motorcycle will not jump into the washing machine.

 

Got any ideas for tire or piston?

 

OK, while they go at it, does anybody have an opinion/help on my no spark issue?

:crazy:

 

I didn't know that you actually had an issue. I thought you were just commenting on some strangeness in the manual...

I only have schematics for the 6th gen. I'll take a look. Are you saying that you have no spark, period, and you're wondering if one of the safety switches is the problem? I'm not being a smart-ass here; the original post doesn't give any clues. Was the bike running and just suddenly stopped, or ran fine one day and wouldn't start the next?

 

Your first inclination was correct. My issue is not with my bike, but with the manual. I was just trying to clarify and generate some discussion on what appears to be misinformation on this part of the ignition system.

It turned out to be much trickier than I thought. Generating the discussion, that is.

:crazy:

 

That's how it goes, sometimes. :biggrin: The price we pay for being human, I guess.

I took a look at the 6th gen schematic, which is of no help at all. I seriously hope that I never have any subtle electrical issues... too many sensors, relays and the ECU seems to get a say in everything that happens.

I don't know that there is a common scheme that all manufacturer's use. My SV needs to have the clutch lever pulled in for the starter relay to work, even in neutral and regardless of the sidestand position. The VFR starter relay only cares about the clutch lever if the transmission isn't in neutral. I'm not certain what either bike does with the "Run" switch in the "off" position.

My old Norton, which had no safety features of any kind, would only start if it was in a good mood that day. But that's a different story. Glad your bike's OK, and that this discussion was meant to be purely academic.

 

While I am not very versed in 4th gen, the side stand switch should just be a simple two wire. The switch should be either open or closed with the stand up. If it's supposed to be open, disconnect the switch. If it's supposed to be closed, disconnect the switch and jump the wires together. This way you can eliminate the switch alltogether and move on, I doubt this is your problem. How many coils do you have, do you have no spark anywhere or just on select cylinders, does it have a distributor and have you checked it to make sure the rotor spins while cranking and it isn't all corroded and fouled. What controls the spark delivery/timing. How did you determine it's a spark problem and not fuel delivery. So many questions, I'll try to find the 4th gen manual and do some checkin.

 

Ok, found the manual. Start by checking that you have all your 12v and ground at the ICM as per the chart on page 16-6. Check you pulse generator resistance as per the specs on page 16-7. I am making a leap here and assuming you have no spark whatsoever at any hole so we should be looking at the main components that control the timing, when and where to send spark. Don't forget to watch out for Kermit wiring and loose connections/terminals and don't jam the test leads INTO the terminals as this could cause spreading and more problems than you allready have. I hope I'm helping and not just rambling on repeating what the manual says........

 

Slow down there Metallican. Sorry, I type too slow. I tried.

After doing some more research, I have determined that I was spoiled by the depth of aircraft schematics, which in turn made me miss vital info that was not as obvious on the more simplified Honda drawings.

I WAS WRONG! The neutral and sidestand switch can allow the starter to function, whilst preventing the spark. I missed the fact that there is another wire that feeds the control module. If those wires are defective, the spark will be missing, but bike will still crank over.

I'm sorry for any confusion I may have created. Atleast I have learned something new today. If someone else does as well, then it was mission accomplished.

:crazy:

 

The run kill switch just grounds the starter relay ignition wire.
Run -not grounded KILL -grounded..... thats all.

 

I still do not hear from the owner if he has spark. Is that what he is asking? How to get spark.

If so..I would just clip on an inductive timing light and turn the engine over.
OR...take an old spark plug and plug it into one of the plug wires, ground the plug and then when it turns over look for a spark.

If he does that ,THEN we can talk about the cause.

 

There was never anything wrong with my bike. I was just trying to understand the theory of the affect the switches had on the spark supply when they were working well enough to allow the starter to engage. It turns out they have another wire that feeds the control module on the 3/4gens(maybe others). I didn't realize this, until I had a closer look at the full wiring diagram. It all makes sense now. Hopefully this painful adventure will help someone in the future.

:crazy: