Gettin the rust out of the tank.

defunct thread

 

did you forget the pictures?

 

No, I installed the pictures on a word file.

but when I tried to up load the doc. file from my computer to the VFRWorld thread all that came through was the text portion. Next I stumbled onto the paper clip and tried to load the document as an attachment. No luck there either. I don't know the procedure for transfering pictures or even for editing them for transfer. I can look at the document "gettin the rust out" on my computer as a word file and the pictures will appear? There is something I have done that's not viable for uploading pictures to the VFRW website. Its 5 am and I have to go to Whittier to do a job. I'll be back in the pm but I will be exhausted. Crusty, If you can help me out with this transfer problem I'd be obliged. The document I can get to load, but without the pictures it's .

 

If i remember correctly, the easiest way is to create a folder for pics in YOUR profile...Upload all the pics to that folder, once the pics are uploaded it should give you urls where the pics can be found. as you copy and paste your words into the Message you copy and paste the pics' urls and at the top of message screen, there is a YELLOW pic with a small mountain and moon, click that and it should ask for the pics URL...paste the info there and keep it moving until you are all done...:thumbsup:

 

Sounds Like I have to completly redo the photos.

I can't do it right now, I'm going to be late getting to Whittier as it is. Gotta go. But I promise to sort it out ASAP. Thanks to you and to crustyrider. Any other definitive methods to import a file with pictures would also be appreciated.

 

photobucket.com

^^^^^^ Go here, open the free account then simply upload the pictures from your file computer location.

Once you've done that, all you have to do is copy/paste the photobucket IMG. link and paste it into your VFRW post.

As long as the photo stays in your Photobucket account it'll be on the VFRW thread for everyone to see.

Hey, if I can do it, it's simple

example - a pic of my ride:

 

Client cancelled todays tests, I have 1-2 hours until I drive to So. Central LA. So how do I get the pics into the thread again, only even slower and more detailed this time.

 

Thanks Seppi and Fatso1277 for the instruction. My problem is that I have essentially created a procedure document with pictures. It's long and I have labled the pictures, probably around 20 high density pixel count photos. If I were going to attach maybe one or two photos that would be one thing, but 20 with complications because of pixel count and label issues?? I don't think so.

I suppose that I will have to jump in the water sometime. But this just don't sound like its going to be the right time. I may have to start with something small and complicated before I go ahead with something big and complicated. Una'stan me? It's not that I don't want to do it, but maybe I have bitten off more than I can chew or swallow.

 

Cool, cool
actually, what you described there was way over my head technologically so, "I'm out"

 

Allright Mr. DeMille, I'm ready to install pictures now!

I have gotten two methods described by 'Fatso1277' and ' 'Seppi'. 'Seppi uses the photobucket option, which appears to install full format high pixel count photos which take forever to load over a phoneline connection like I use. The method described by Fatso1277 utilizes the VFRW attachment "clipboard" which I stumbled onto last night. It seems to limit the pixel size of the photos it transfers ???? I want the pictures to load as fast as possible. Not for my sake but for the sake of any reader of so long a document. What I am describing is a method for removing rust from the inside of a fuel tank using pictures to illustrate the method. It's the electrolysis method.

Taking cues from the two answers I have thus far received I believe I have to first transfer the photos from my hard drive to either a 'Photobucket' or to the VFRW 'attachment clipboard'. I think I should try the VFRW way first, with the understanding that I have never done either method before and have no clue which is better/easier/faster loading/better final quality. So fatso1277 you are batter up if you have the stomach for it. I'll re read your reply and try to interpret what you have said and apply it. Any error messages that flash by will be read and I'll jot down what bits I captured. Then I'll call on you for help if I've hit a brick wall. Should be instructional if its not fun.
DKC

 

Allright Mr. DeMille, I'm ready to install pictures now!

I have gotten two methods described by 'Fatso1277' and ' 'Seppi'. 'Seppi uses the photobucket option, which appears to install full format high pixel count photos which take forever to load over a phoneline connection like I use. The method described by Fatso1277 utilizes the VFRW attachment "clipboard" which I stumbled onto last night. It seems to limit the pixel size of the photos it transfers ???? I want the pictures to load as fast as possible. Not for my sake but for the sake of any reader of so long a document. What I am describing is a method for removing rust from the inside of a fuel tank using pictures to illustrate the method. It's the electrolysis method.

Taking cues from the two answers I have thus far received I believe I have to first transfer the photos from my hard drive to either a 'Photobucket' or to the VFRW 'attachment clipboard'. I think I should try the VFRW way first, with the understanding that I have never done either method before and have no clue which is better/easier/faster loading/better final quality. So fatso1277 you are batter up if you have the stomach for it. I'll re read your reply and try to interpret what you have said and apply it. Any error messages that flash by will be read and I'll jot down what bits I captured. Then I'll call on you for help if I've hit a brick wall. Should be instructional if its not fun.
DKC

 

OK. I got a JPEG photo to attach!

I was not expecting it and made a mistake in posting my last reply twice, but the second time it came with a "thumbnail" of the photo of "rust colored gas in the inline filter". This was unexpected but it gives me hope that the process is not all that difficult. I was using the "Attachment manager" when I got this result. Its not what I would like the outcome to be. The pictures are too small to see the labels that are printed on them. To enlarge the photo requires too long a wait. What next??

 

there isnt really a quick way to upload the pics with dial-up. but one at a time. when a person wants to see more detail they just click on the picture and it enlarges. since there is that limitation on pics sizes it works...my suggestions for those interested, just copy and paste words...then go back and click on pic to enlarge it, copy it and paste its original size in word doc...it works...

 

I just got a good condition tank that may be slightly rusted on the inside and I would like to try and remove the rust myself.

 

you could try electrolysis...
http://vfrworld.com/forums/first-second-generation-1983-1989/16164-my-science-project-removing-rust-electrolysis.html

Rust removal by electrolysis

 

1st URL attempt

Because I am having such a hard time transferring the pictures I have had to break this procedure into sections in order to put it in this forum. I would appreciate any help from any GURU on the Photo section of VFRWorld in making photo transfers faster than my current method allows.

Surface Rust Removal ​

1. PRELIMINARY DISCUSSION & SETTING UP THE SYSTEM

I want to thank all the contributors to the original thread : “Tank Rust? Any consensus on best fix?”. But I have to give a special thanks to :hail: ‘uberchuckie’ who pointed us all to the web guy in Ottawa, Canada, and his presentation of the electrolysis method of rust removal.

All the history about the rust in my 82 Vf 750c is in the original thread so that anyone desiring to follow it can find it in the “dead threads” under the title given above. But to recollect what happened to the V45 when I tried to start and run it after a complete carburetor rebuild I direct you to the first picture. If I had known then what I know now I could have been cleaning the tank (s) while I rebuilt the carburetors.



The fact that the fuel was discolored in the inline filter was not really a concern at first. I thought the filter would do it’s thing and I that had been brilliant in predicting that I would need the in line filter to begin and end with. But no such luck. Pride goes before a fall. Lets look at the difference between the fuel from the gas station pump and the fuel after it had percolated through both the main and the reserve tank on the Magna. Big color change huh?



So I ended up crying for mercy in the 1st and 2nd Generation Forum. I had a rust problem even if it were simply surface rust. I had to find a way to get it out. The stuff in the bottom of the bucket in the attached photo is what I wanted to get out. That is what this thread is about.



I got a lot of advice saying I should buy a tank coating product of one or another brand. And that might have been good advice except that it came from the east or mid west where tanks rot through because of rust. I had a motorcycle that had spent it’s whole life in the So California’s medium high desert (between LA and Palm Springs). It had not seen so much water in it that it had rusted through. It had seen 13 years of sitting empty, in a drafty garage or carport, condensing water out of the air on those rare occasions when there was sufficient moisture in the air and the dew point was sufficiently high enough to allow for condensation in the desert. It happens but not all that often, certainly not as often as most of the rest of the country, and certainly not in the quantities of moisture condensed out as in the mid west :rain: , not to mention Canada. :smow: (I have clear recollections of coming out in the mornings in Lexington, Ky to find the entire car covered @ ¼ in thick with dew).

So my problem was to get out the surface rust as best possible. There were several suggestions but the one that I chose was the electrolysis method suggested by ‘uberchuckie’ and the unnamed contributor from a web in Ottawa. I think it was the right choice in my case and probably for anyone else, especially as a start to removing all the rust inside a tank prior to coating the inside of a tank that has pin holes etc.

What’s presented here is not ‘the order that must be followed’. It’s merely how I remember going about it.

First you need to gather up some necessary parts and supplies.

The parts/supplies:

1. A battery charger, the bigger the charger (amp wise) the faster the rust will be removed. A 10-12 amp charger is more than enough to do a typical motorcycle tank in a day or two, and a typical smaller automatic 4- 6 amp charger will work as well, only take longer.

2. You need something to use for an anode. I found the preferred anode for a small necked motorcycle tank was a single piece of ½ inch rebar about 12 to 15 inches long is probably enough for a typical tank. See the photo below.



3. A cork or rubber stopper chosen to fit the tank filler opening . It will have to be drilled to accommodate the rebar while maintaining electrical isolation of the rebar from the tank itself. Buy a stopper sufficiently large in diameter to not fall through the filler hole when pushed down in order to make it fit tightly and hold the rebar in place while the electrolysis takes place. See attached photo.



4. Various buckets for mixing and storing the electrolyte solution.



5. A dedicated AC outlet with adequate breaker to power /protect the battery charger.

6. Elastic gloves.

7. A funnel for pouring electrolyte solution into the fuel tank.

8. Paper towels and stuff to soak up spilled electrolyte.

9. There are some other things that you will need that will be explained through the course of this explanation.

The original straight rebar bought at my local hardware store is seen above. The lower rebar piece has been bent in order to get it into the tank as far as possible. You need an acetylene torch to bend the rebar. The cork stopper was also bought at the hardware store. The bent anode uses the cork stopper to both insulate the rebar from the side of the tank filler hole and hold the rebar in a cantilevered position inside the tank. For reasons that will become apparent later, try to bend the rebar in a single plane. If you do otherwise you might not be able to use the same bent rebar for both sides of the tank. Of course you can make an anode for each side of a tank if you so desire. The choice of the cork stopper was financial. A rubber stopper will work just as well, probably even better. I also chose a cork stopper because it was easier to drill than a rubber stopper. However, the rubber stopper can be used over and over if you intend to clean out more than one tank. The cork stopper had a tendency to come apart because it was made of very porous cork. A better quality of cork would last longer. The picture shown above illustrates the angled drill hole in the cork. The angled hole was necessary in order to do the main tank in two steps, left and right sides respectively. This is also the reason you want to bend the rebar in one plane. Before moving on I want to point out one thing that can be clearly seen in the detailed photo of the cork shown above. Notice that there is a coat of rust on the rebar. The rebar acts as the ‘Anode’ in the electrolysis process. The rebar is ‘plated’ with rust. If you look at the shadow of the rebar you will see that the shadow of the rebar edge shows the rust coating to have a prickly, hairy sort of look to it. The “hair” is the accumulation of rust into little spines during the electrolysis process. You can compare this rusted surface of the ‘anode’, which is submerged in the electrolyte solution placed in the tank, to the clean end on the other side of the stopper that acts as the battery charger positive lead attachment point.



As for supplies, besides paper towels, you need to get some “washing soda”. This you may find impossible to find depending on where you live. I could not find it over two days of looking. But not to worry, “washing soda” is just another name for sodium carbonate. And sodium carbonate is derived from cooking ‘sodium bicarbonate’ in an oven for an hour at 350F. Cooking drives one of the carbonate molecules off the larger ‘bicarbonate’ molecule in the form of CO2. This is why another name for sodium carbonate is “soda ash”, which is commonly used to control acidity in swimming pools.



So if you can’t find “washing soda” at your grocery store you can find it at the pool store or at WalMart or Home Depot during the summer swimming season. If you can’t locate “store bought soda ash” then just buy a box of Arm and Hammer Baking Soda (sodium bicarbonate) and spread it on a cookie sheet and cook it in your oven for an hour at 350F. ‘Voila’, Sodium Carbonate at your service.

You need to put “soda ash” or whatever you want to call it, in the water you use as the electrolyte. Most plain tap water is too neutral for good conduction of electrons between anode and cathode. Using distilled water is an unnecessary expense and basically no help regarding electron transfer. Tap water is sufficient. You need to mix the “soda ash” into the water in a bucket before you put it in the tank. Make sure you have mixed it to the point where the water is clear, not cloudy. No need or benefit in putting excessive amounts of soda ash in the water. About half a cup of soda ash will do for most common sized gas tank capacities (2 to 3 gallons). It does not require special gloves to work with the soda ash. It need not be any more caustic than pool water. Just enough base to promote electrolysis. I think a mix of 1 cup to 5 gallons water was mentioned elsewhere. So that 2 lbs of Soda Ash that was pictured is enough to make 30 gallons of electrolyte. It was the smallest amount I could buy. It was on sale @ $4.00 reduced from $6.00.



As was shown above the rebar used as the anode had to be bent to get it as far as possible into the Magna tank. This was done for a reason. The electrolysis process is dependent on “line of sight”. So the inside tank walls that can “see” the anode hanging inside the tank will produce the bubbling action that strips the rust from the walls of the tank. I wanted the anode to extend horizontally as far as possible toward the tail or seat end of the tank so it would see as much surface area of the inside walls as possible. As is the case for most motorcycles, the Magna tank has a hump or rise in the middle of the bottom of the tank. The top of the hump can be seen lurking in the filler hole surrounded by the rust on the filler seal flange and neck of the filler hole. The tank was photographed after I put gasoline through the tank and after an initial experiment WRT the electrolysis method, using a coat hanger as an anode. Therefore, most of the rust on the hump under the filler has been removed prior to the photograph. The coat hanger anode appears in the picture of the ohmmeter that will appear during the explanation of setting up the Left Hand Side (LHS) of the tank for electrolysis. In the Magna’s case, the hump is there to allow room for the air filter and the box it is contained in to reside under the main tank. Therefore it will be necessary to strip the rust inside the tank in two stages, one side of the tank at a time. How this was done with one anode will be shown in the photographs that follow.



To prepare the tank to hold the electrolyte solution you have to block up any openings that would allow the electrolyte to escape from the tank. I have attached a grey colored piece of fuel line to the vapor collector line. It has a on/off valve on the other end to stop electrolyte from escaping if the tank is over full. The valve will be left open during electrolysis to allow foam to escape.


You need to prepare the tank for the electrical connection to the negative (cathode) lead of the battery charger in order for the tank interior to act as the “cathode”, or negative side of the electrolysis system.



To affect a good connection of the alligator clips of the battery charger to the cathode and the anode you should clean the sulfate build up on the copper clips before hook up.



Then I installed the cathode clip on the reserve tank cross over pipe because I would not have access to the underneath part of the tank once the electrolyte was installed.



More to come in parts 2 and 3.

Help with photo transfer will be greatly appreciated. :smile: DKC