26 Bike Pile-up

I could say pretty much the same things about many sport bike riders I've seen, or dirt bike riders, etc. (Gold-wing drivers seem more sedate, but maybe that's because they are driving two-wheeled cars).

I'm not a fan of gangs of any kind, and people that ride way too fast on bikes with loud pipes (either harleys or sport bikes) make it more difficult for the rest of us.

That being said, I'm glad I live in a country where I can buy a bike that goes stupid-fast, where it's my choice to wear a helmet or other protective gear (in the right states), and generally be an idiot. Freedom doesn't just mean that you get to do what you want, it means that others can act like idiots too.

It's a shame that some people got hurt in a big bike bang-up, but it was their choice to ride close together, with or without protective gear. But it's no more stupid than doing a wheelie at 70mph on the freeway in heavy traffic (I've seen it happen here several times). Or riding a high-end sport bike wearing a t-shirt, shorts and flip-flops. Stupid is not unique to one genre.

It's easy to point fingers at others, but when I started riding, everybody on two wheels was a brother, hondas, harleys, hodakas, what have you. One of my best friends is a die-hard harley man. Every now and then we trade bikes, I laugh at his soft tail and he laughs at my vfr. But we still ride together. We have more in common than we have differences.

 

Wow, those things handle pretty good. It's surprising you never saw them in superbike or motogp. :biggrin:

 

There is no question that these two are very good at handling those bikes on this course but you must remember, this is a training track. God only knows how many times they went around that course and each time they did so, they likely improved there ability to manouver that particular corner.

I was not a motocop so took no such training. But was for a good part of my career a traffic cop. I had taken the Advanced Driver Training Course twice. (Just about wet myself when they offered it to me a esecond time.)

They timed us the first time going through the course and then after several days of practice, timed us again. I don't remember thee times involved, but my improvement was absolutely incredible. No cones were knocked over. Radar units were set up. And I was "consistantly" going through a portion of this course called "The Decision Maker" where you swerve one way then immediately the other, above the critical speed as determined by Accident Reconstructionists. Now I don't say this to suggest I was a better driver than others on the course, or the road for that matter. What was happening was that through repitition, I got the feel of the vehicle, and the same corners time and time again, allowing me to manouver without loosing control or taking out the cones.

There is no doubt that this training vastly improved my ability to handle a car in adverse conditins out on the roads, but to expect me to successfully complete the same manouver, on a city street, using the same dimensions, would be like expecting a mouse to mate with an elephant.

But damned. Having said all that, those courses were orgasmic. Several days on a closed track driving the shit out of a car, and getting paid to do it.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

 

Another McCarthy convert in the making!

It's dark Echo...real dark.

Let Bear and I know when you start the novel.

BZ

 

Actually I think that training did and still does help you every single time you get behind the wheel. I've been doing various motorsports including autocross, trackdays and karting for ~12 years, and while I don't always consciously think about it as such, knowing the friction circle, what a car does at it's limits, and how to get around the sheeple who just put himself into the wall, has saved me from trading paint countless times wet, dry or on snow. I'm working on getting the same level of proficiency on two wheels as well. And yes, having some actual training DOES make you a far better driver.

 

Rolling Rock! Well There's Your Problem,, no wonder your sour pusses:tongue2:

 

When you are 50 years old you won't be talking like that.

 

A fine thread gentlemen, with a wide range of inputs, from the dismal state of abilities of our fellow roadway users all the way to suggestions on recreational reading.....

Mike's statement here comes about as close to putting my feeling on the subject in a concise way as anything I have written so far.

I am not a doomsayer nor a Pollyanna, I dont think that the sky is going to fall on all us motorcycle riders tomorrow, nor do I think if we all just try to get along all the problems will solve themselves.

I refuse to hate on Harleys, squids, stunters, 1%ers, cops, scooter drivers, dirt bikers, drag racers or anyone else on a bike. Not as long as I ride a bike myself. Because the fact remains that riding a motorcycle actually MAKES NO SENSE. Since I cant explain fully my reasons for behaving so irrationally except in nebulous terms like freedom and emotional uplift, I will reserve my hating for things I wont feel so hypocritical about.

 

+1 Bear. I refuse to hate on anyone who rides, lest I be rightly labeled a hypocrite. That being said, the people involved in this handlebar bender only confirm what I have come to firmly believe: It doesn't matter where you are, you can't look around without seeing a whole bunch of stupid. I feel certain that won't change any time in the near future.

At this point in my life, I just don't have time to care about what happens to stupid people.

I am definitely going to read Blood Meridian. Thanks for the tip brothers.

 

Gentlemen:

I am confused and need clarification on a matter.

The definition of hypocrite is: “a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion”.

The definition of virtue is: 1.“conformity to a standard of right”, 2. “a particular moral excellence”, 3. “a beneficial quality or power of a thing”.

Can someone in the class please explain to Bubba Zanetti how motorcyclists, who value and partake in the art of proficient motorcycling, who bust on riders, who do not value and partake in the art of proficient motorcycling, be hypocrites?

BZ

 

+1 BZ...

I have to agree bro... while society may paint all motorcyclists with one broad brush, we know different. there are clearly several kinds, distinct in their natures and utterly different. Sure, there are decent men and women who ride Harleys, crotch rockets, scooters, dirt, etc...

but in every sect you have the "squids" (we need an emoticon for that) who are just too stupid or ignorant to realize they're putting themselves and others in danger, wearin' little or zero gear and tryin' their damned-est just to look like a somebody...

you have the "weekend warriors" who only have a bike because they wanna fit in, and barely ride in the sunshine when the temp is just right and the roads are freshly paved...

you have the "iron asses", who tour for days, weeks, thousands of miles, soakin' up the view...

you have your "stunters", who push the envelope and put machines through paces I've never dreamed of, in a professional capacity (i.e. Jason Britton, among others)...

and of course, there's tons of guys like me, with only the bike for transportation, who love motorcycles and sharing the wind with their biker brothers, regardless of what they happen to be straddling...

Point is, it is TOTALLY within sensible boundaries for us to point out the weak links in our societal unit. While I respect the fellas of Brother Speed as mechanics and riders, I sure as hell wouldn't roll with 'em... It's just self-preservation. I wanna live to ride another day, so I have preset filters :biggrin: if you're a moron, don't expect to see me rollin' my throttle next to ya, plain and simple. And if your filters keep me from your lane too, so be it, I won't pitch a fit...

P.S. as Bubba points out, there is a clear distinction between motorcyclists and riders. Ask him :thumbsup: he'll explain it better than I

 

You can probably guess by the quote at the end of my autosignature that I have a rather different definition to hypocrisy... Hypocrisy is probably the one thing that 'gets my goat' more than just about anything else. I find that the MASS MAJORITY of people make statements, often very strong statements, but do not actually "walk the walk" (a couple people on this forum included). To me, the definition is basically someone who professes something, usually strongly, but either doesn't actually behave that way directly, or thru other actions countermands their professed belief.

My point about hypocrisy earlier was more about sportbike riders blaming bikers for negative press to motorcyclist in general, and I was simply stating that the fringe of the sportbike crowd (e.g. street stunters, squids who can't handle their bikes, reckless over-riders, etc.) do as much or worse for our image, rep or press than do bikers; and thus it was hypocritical to blame bikers only.

Re-reading my post it can be taken that I was advocating somehow stopping this bad behavior in our sportbike fringe groups. I did not intend that from a law or external perspective, but more from a peer-pressure, mentoring perspective. I was not slamming the author (Pyro) of that post either, because I agreed with his sentiment in general, and understood (I hope) his intention; that he wasn't speaking in absolutes, even though his post was stated in absolutes.

So, your example about proficient motorcyclists was not the point, of my statement re: hypocrisy at least.

 

I agree! :thumbsup: everyone!

I will let you know.

 

Echo, I was calling out Brother Bear and Mr.Den for clarification on the matter.

However, thank you for your nice response. It was not wasted on me.

Mr. McNoob has done a wonderful job in beginning to take my query into the direction it is destined.

Class is getting stimulating.

BZ

 

Since you are obviously sitting up front on this one....... Perhaps the large part of your brain devoted to ego is battling with the equally large part of that fine brain of yours and concluding that my feeling of hypocrisy concerning telling others how to ride somehow applies to you. How would I know about the brain war? Let's just say it takes one to know one heeheee

If I did the things you do Brother Bubba, that is, were an MSF coach and taught those willing to learn the basics and finer points of biking, then perhaps my feelings would be different. Perhaps you just flat care more for others than I do, and that's not meant sarcastically.

I don't do much of anything to further the cause of motorcycling other than spend money. Since I don't hold myself out as anything other that nor do I hold myself to be an ambassador for biking, it would be rather silly of me to suppose I had some right to tell others what they were doing wrong unless they asked

Brother Bubba, for my next trick I will use my prescient powers to predict where we are going with this and why you have been sitting so close to the front of the room. Let's just say it has to do with things like ABATE chapters

Now you and I both know that no logic exists in any ABATE argument. No one with a lick of sense buys any of the "restricted vision, etc blabla " arguments. What it comes down to is a vote to repeal a helmet law is in fact a vote that says "you are not allowed to tell me what to do"

And that my brother is an entirely different arguement for the day when we can sit and have some brewskis and hopefully that will be soon

 

It just seems to me that guys like the ones in the pile-up are the reason for a lot of bad biker publicity. When I say "guys like them", I'm not referring to chopper builders, or Harley guys... I'm referring to that percentage of "riders" who don't take it seriously.

Lump these knuckleheads together with squids like that idiot from the other thread who bought a Busa cuz the ladies like 'em... I'm referring to the clowns who ride without an M1 license, cuz someone told them a car license was adequate... The guys who think riding dirtbikes somehow qualifies them for street by default... The guys who've never even heard of an MSF course... the kids who spend daddy's pension gettin' a GSXR, then wrap it around a pole doin' stunts on a busy freeway... That idiot who got his head wedged into the back of a semi-trailer that's all over Youtube now...

The bad rep comes from all divisions of the motorcycle world. But my point is simply that the guys who ARE careful never get props. How often do you see front page news coverage of a toy run? How about, just once, some news cameras follow the Harleys who run supplies to a children's leukemia center once a year, rain or shine? When do we see up-to-the-minute helicopter footage of some bloke in full race leathers carvin' a mountainside, not spillin' his ride, and then parking and havin' a burger at the bottom?

NOOO. motorcyclists catch the bad rep because there are a few select morons on the road...

 

That's what I thought you meant, and I agree. Of course any group blames the "Bad Apples" for all their issues; in fact, that's where the term 1%'er comes from...

 

Soapbox moment

:soapbox:

actually, the term "1%'er" comes from a statement made by the AMA in the 1960's. They had determined, supposedly through census and research, that one percent of those who rode motorcycles were actually criminals, i.e. only one percent had actually gone to jail at some point, and that the other 99% were average law-abiding blokes who led normal decent lives. It grew to be a symbol of the "badasses," but in the early days those who wore the patch were representing that they were, in fact, a member of the hundredth percentile, the "elite" who were legitimate outlaws.

How that pertains to this particular discussion, i'm not sure. :yousuck: jk jk

But seriously, 1%'ers aren't idiots or squids, they're criminals, gangsters, and vandals. My point is that the collective "we" of motorcyclists have within our ranks a whole unit of morons, guys who should wear metaphorical helmets and dribble-bibs when they go outdoors... And unfortunately, it is that "special" portion of us who is perpetually thrust into the limelight.

Our good deeds as motorcyclists are never shoved into the media... Our many charity runs (from both the harley guys and the ricers) don't get coverage... only the screw-ups, ever the dingbats who crash, or cause accidents, or kill a pedestrian... It's to the point now where if we get into accidents on the road, even judges assume it's the motorcyclist's fault... we have to wear helmet cams and get actual footage of someone hitting us to have a shot half the time.

It simply doesn't follow... It seems unfair that the world's perception of motorcycles and those who ride them is so sordid and outdated. In the beginning, motorcycles were riden by the few who had the knowledge and strength to handle them. Now, any John Doe teeny-bopper can hop on a crotch rocket or cruiser, and they DO. then they get killed, usually by something that Darwin would use to further his point on the survival of the fittest. And then we, the guys who ride all the time and DON'T die, catch all the residual crap.

 

Actually Pyro, here locally the charity runs are covered by media. There is one coming up this weekend that is very large and benefits the opening of the Kentucky Derby festival activities.

FOX41's Thunder Into Louisville Poker Run | Louisville.com

Louisville has become a center for health care innovation and children's disease treament, and there is always the annual Toys for Tots runs every year and runs benefitting Kosair Children's Hospital. This one is big enough to close off parts of the city streets, hence the media coverage.

These runs are usually populated by the cruiser/Harley crowd but there are sportbikes in the mix. A large amount of money is spent constantly by Harley in particular looking to portray bikers in postive ways, yet at the same time we see ads that tell the public youre a badass if you ride a Hog. Just as we see ads like Yamaha does with Valentino on the racetrack, subliminal message being if you get one of our R1s you can go fast like Vale. you dont see Vespa ads in the US ...reason? even though they maybe cost effective and green and all, nobody looks like a badass on a Vespa.

To my knowledge there are never human interest stories on canyon carving, and I doubt there ever will be, since in the big scheme of things we occupy a small niche and if you want to read that you have to go the niche market mags. As to the media covering accidents, well, if it bleeds, it leads. That's how news is done.

The reason that bad boy bikers get such ink is the same reason that people love the bad boys everywhere, folks enjoy living vicariously. Chicks dig bad boys but dont want to marry them. This stuff has been going on a looong loooong time and wont change anytime soon,

 

"actually, the term "1%'er" comes from a statement made by the AMA in the 1960's. They had determined, supposedly through census and research, that one percent of those who rode motorcycles were actually criminals, i.e. only one percent had actually gone to jail at some point, and that the other 99% were average law-abiding blokes who led normal decent lives. It grew to be a symbol of the "badasses," but in the early days those who wore the patch were representing that they were, in fact, a member of the hundredth percentile, the "elite" who were legitimate outlaws"

I think before anyone starts quoting the oft and ill quoted Santayana axiom, we should all be aware that he also said, " History is a pack of lies about events that never happened told by people who weren't there."

The reference to 1%ers coming from the sixties is just a bit short on veracity. Maybe we should just change the Santayana axiom to something like, Those who do not learn from history sometimes just make up shit in an attempt to convince the ignorant that they really know something.

In the late 50's and early 60's the HMFIC of the AMA then the " American Motorcycle Association" was also the head flack (PR dude) for Harley-Davidson. In another short perusal of actual history it will be shown that some of the badboy MC's go back a little further than the 60's.

As long as the current dialog is drifting toward the philosophical and drifting away from fact we might wish to recognize that the world didn't just start for any of us 365.25 days before our first Bday, where the final tableux was a diaper full of shit.

BTW, anyone can buy a 1% patch on Ebay for less than five bucks. Probably made in China.