Cross Controlling or Counter Steering

Don't bet on it:biggrin: But do you see the point, even if you don't think you're counter steering,it's still happeniing. So when you do CS with thought and it fights you it's because it isn't smooth. If you steer all the time it will always be smooth. Like anything done differently from what "we've" been doing, give it time and it will get better.... Goes for all of us.........

 

monk69, thank you for the belly laugh.

I've read Keith Code and I have looked into the matter (even bicycles counter steer, it's difficult to notice on bicycles but it is how you control any two wheeled vehicle), so I knew that you were right, but that experiment is beautiful when you actually do it (computer desks work as well as kitchen tables).

I think that Mr. Code also pointed out that people tend to stop riding the first time a car pulls out in front of them and they reflexively jerk the handlebars to point the bike away (thus steering toward it) this convinces them that they don't have the reflexes or something... So yes it is worth practicing, in a conscious way, the actual steering method you are already using.

Knowing this early on was the most terrifying part of learning to ride for me. The first few times I was pulling the outside grip to adjust a 65mph turn and my brain is screaming "I DON'T KNOW HOW THIS WORKS!" caused some massive anxiety, but sometimes you just have to relax and be harrowed.
Now of course I'm just relaxed, that's where the fun is.

Carry on as you were.


EDIT: Also, yes tires wear down in the middle first (like a half sharpened pencil) that's because we are unfortunately unable to spend as many miles in corners as on straightaways. I say mind the wear indicators and treat yourself to new, round, safer tires every time you grind down to them. There's very little point in pushing your luck and fresh tires feel good.

 

Yea you're right.... I started riding in 1965 and rode for at least 10 years before I was taught to CS.... The University of Ill. came out with the mc riders lics. test that if you didn't practice CS you'd never get though the test( 3 lanes 3 lights, at the last min, 2 lights turn red, you have to take the green lane.... You sure as chit won't get the green lane if you just lean)(lead a horse to water:wink....... Then of course there's the belief that what you "see" in the racing videos, that there are people hanging off bikes with their knees hanging out.... would make you think that leaning and air braking with the knee is how to make a bike turn, which everone that's taken a class, or read any of the how-to race/turn/corner/etc. books/mags would know that you steer the bike and that the more you lean will help the bike come up so you can steer deeper if you need to. and that the reason they have their knees out is 2 reasons bring more weight low and to the inside, and as a feeler for how far over you are(I know you know all this stuff from what you said, I'm just putting it into words for the sake of the ones that might not know and want to learn something)..... But the main point is what you said up front...."If you don't use CS-ing all the time, and you get into a panic turn situation, you're going to steer towards what you wanted to steer away from".... Thx for bringing up that point..... It may save a lot of new riders......... Monk

 

IMO, Mr. Code is the better source here. However any input about countersteering skateboards is very welcome.

 

There's a zillion different types of car and truck designs out their and to state they all steer the same by turning the steering wheel left to go left or right to go right (as they all do) is a bit nuts.

Sorry Weasel, but I work for the Department of Pointing out Flawed Logic" police and had to point out you are wrong.

My above statement should make this clear.

BZ

 

Code once said something to the effect:

"If you don't learn and practice how to counter steer a motorcycle then you shouldn't own one".

BZ

 

... or live in texas

 

w-o-t,,,,,,

 

I couldn't agree more, That's why I took his 3 day course..... Thx for confirming ..........

 

Thx.... By the way I like your Olin Set-up....

 

I learned it as push/pull method on my cruiser, but didn't really understand how it really works until I read Lee Parks book Total Control high performance street riding. I still have to think about in hard fast turns when they get a little tight. Also being a big boy leaning off the bike just to help with my center of gravity really seems to help.

just my 2cents

 

+1 on Lee Parks book Total Control

 

That sounds interesting... I haven't heard of him, but I'll look into his book.... Always like to read and learn more.... Just can't get enough info, more... more... Thx

 

he also has an advanced rider clinic.....see schedule:

Total Control Advanced Riding Clinic

Here's an overview of the book:

Total Control is not the first book on high-performance riding skills, but it actually delivers on what others can only promise: To significantly improve your ability to control any motorcycle. Based on the proven techniques of national champion Lee Parks critically acclaimed Advanced Riding Clinics, this book is the fastest and safest way to gain mastery over your machine.

Written in a clear, understandable style, Parks demystifies the techniques used by top racers and demonstrates how to apply them to high-performance street riding, no matter what kind of bike you ride. And for the first time anywhere in print, Parks explains the mental dynamics of fear and his remarkable process for overcoming the single biggest hindrance to learning new skills.

Raised in a family of professional educators, Parks revolutionary approach to riding is based on a superior teaching methodology as much as the techniques themselves. By breaking down the skills into small, easily learned modules in a building block format, the result is the most effective riding technology ever developed.

Total Control is the must-have book for sport, touring and cruiser riders who want to take their riding to the next level in the shortest amount of time without taking unnecessary risks.

:thumbsup:

 

Flash bulb.... Is this the husband/wife team out of Florida?

 

I don't think so Monk.

He's an ex-racer turned MC riding guru like Code.

I took his class, its were I learned to hang off amongst other things.

BZ

 

I will have to get his book... Thx

 

There is a proof test that can be observed whilst on a bike that demonstrates how countersteering works.

Coast downhill and take your mitts off the bars..aka "Look Mom, no hands." shift your weight right or left observing which way the steering re-locates.

This proof test is not best observed at mach 1.

Buell's are not the only bikes out there that are short coupled like flat trackers. Most of the "moto" style bikes have quick front ends. The old style way to slow a front end down on flat trackers was to increase the size of the front wheel. Common practice when jumping from a half mile to a mile track.

 

"Parks explains the mental dynamics of fear and his remarkable process for overcoming the single biggest hindrance to learning new skills."

At least half of riding is mental. Even after riding for over 30 yrs and all my racing experience (24hr). I can still scare the shit out of my self on the road by not thinking right at times. Your mind has to be out in front of the bike and the faster you go the farther out it must be. The biggest help I got for racing in the rain, was a mental conditioning. On a track after 15 minutes or so the track gets all of the oils and stuff washed off. Your traction then is close to when it's dry. You then just have to believe that in your head to go fast in the rain. It works!

It's hard for me to comprehend that there are people out there that don't believe in counter steering. The concept is so simple and it can be proven any time at speeds over 10mph. "Push right go right" Your body lean only helps at higher speeds (basically) when leaning way over. By adjusting your body some you can make small corrections of the bike trajectory. Same goes for small throttle inputs. Back off - the bike wants to stand up, more power more lean. The higher the rpm of the engine the easier you can control lean angle in corners. It all has to do with the gyroscopic effect. That's why alot of the engines crank shafts are transverse. The engine also has a gyro effect along with the wheels on a bike.

If my mind isn't right when riding I'm in deep do do. Then it's time to take a break.

 

well been watching this thread and lets see if I can dumb up the answer a bit.
first lates take out everything but the front tire.
leaning off the bike has nothing to do w/ anything on the street and really only allows the bike to have less of a lean angle so we will leave that out as well.


picture the front tire axle center line as being the center dot below - dot above it will be contact patch ahead of axle center line and below center dot will represent behind axle center line.


+ + O

+ + O contact to road

+ + O


1st note all referance will be on turning left

look at circles above you are going strait.
now when you push left bar forward you inturn move the tire contact patch behind axle center line and this makes the tire roll to the left side and turn it.

+ + O
+ O
O contact to road

now once bike is setttled in the turn the dots line back up.
O
O contact to road
O

now and you prob dont relize you do this but to stand the bike back up you push forward slightly on the right bar moving contact patch infront of axle center line

O contact to road
+ O
+ + O
this inturn rolls the tire back to center.

all adjustments in turn are made like this wether you realize it or not.

guess to see for yourself lean your bike to the left ( riding on edge of tires instead of center ) while going straight push forward on right bar and bike will straiten back up.

I have read most books on the subject and have raced for quite a few years and talking to new riders most feel the explainations are a little over thier heads.

I feel this explaination show a very extream version of what happens when you push or pull on the bars but I hope to show how it works.
feedback good or bad on this explaination is welcome.