1986 VFR700F electric conversion

Trannie

OK.

HD= Harley Davidson, they use an external transmission, about the size of a large breadbox. Shaft in and shaft out, ready for gears, pullies etc.

OK, If they electric motor is fine direct drive, seeing as how acceleration benefits from gear ratio, limiting top speed, for now (120V is another story). Your shooting around 5:1.

Let's change gears.

If direct drive is good, and torque is available at 0 RPM, would it better more efficient to have 2 smaller motors vs 1 larger.

I'm thinking 2 motors in the drive hubs instead of 1 in the chassis with chain drive. I would really like to make an ebike, but the engineer wants to make something futuristic also, ala the Suzuki Nuda?

I understand that taking an existing bike and retrofitting an electric motor will be OK for now. My commute right now is 35 miles one way and I would like a little breathing room as pushing an ebike does not appeal to me.

Larry

BTW, if I haven't said it, I think this is one of the best ideas ever, and can't wait to make my own or even see a marketable kit.

 

Gotcha. I heard a little about the Harley's. but do you really need 5-6 gears? because of the RPM range, you might only need 2 gears.... but its an interesting Idea. The whine of a motor at 4-5krpm is awesome

My ratio is 5.45:1 right now, might adjust to 5:1 depending on what 120V gets me It'l allow higher speed. But the thing about a controller, is that it controls power. It uses PWM to control the "average" voltage to the motor. at 25% throttle of 120 it might be putting out 30V average. Lets say the batteries can put out 150A at 120V max. thats 18kW of power. At 30V, that'd be around 600A on the motor side. There are caps inside that are in parallel with the battery, so when you switch ON, the batteries AND caps, they discharge in parallel. When you switch off, the caps recharge for the other 75% of the time, fairly slowly. Then repeat ON OFF ON OFF ON OFF. The motor smoothes out the ON OFF ON OFF, so it just looks like a ripple with an average voltage of ~30V. It converts power (although, youre max output voltage is limited by the pack voltage, it doesn't increase power or voltage, just regulates power).

Nope not really. Its better to install a larger motor, than 2 smaller. Essentially adding copper and extra flux would benefit more inside one case, as the efficiency would only occur at one motor, rather than having 2 motors and the losses increasing. When you can't FIT a large motor in, 2 smaller is fine, but still, more lossy.

2 words. Unsprung weight. Those motors won't be lightweight, at least if you want to get some decent performance out of them. All that weight is unsprung, and when you go around a curve, you get extra gyroscopic effects.

yeah, converting is good for me for now too, but an engineered electric bike would be best. 35 miles is doable, can you charge there? Lots of companies can get incentives from their state for installing a charging station... so maybe asking them would be a good idea. Tell them you only need 5Kwh of electricity a day. its around 7 cents here per Kwh, so thats 35 cents a day. I'm sure they'll allow it.

I'd love to offer a kit for this honda with lifepo.... we're working on refining the setup, then we'll get lifepo and blueprint the kit for others. Thanks for the feedback

 

Ebike

Ok, the serious search for a donor with large battery area begins. I saw a 08 GSXR1000 donor, but they wanted $1000. Maybe a slightly older bike with a dead/blown engine.

Keep up the good work. Was looking a LI batteries, but I can't seem to find a "package". Are you making your own packs for 96 or 120 V?

I really want something modular so I can fit as much power as possible in the frame, so flexibility may be important.

Is there a manual/guidebook for the engineering oriented so I can read how to install/wire/organize the bike?

Again, good job, lead on.

Larry

 

I'd avoid picking a bike first. In hindsight, i'd have chosen a slightly wider frame that can fit more batteries inside. V fours are nice engines, but the inline 4 are wider and allow more batteries inside.

First chose a budget, as its going to define the limts of the project. Next, define your range NEEDS (not wants), and speed NEEDS (not wants). Then look around for what it would cost for the system (battery,motor,controller, gauges). Calculate the weight/volume of the batteries and what the weight would be and if its resonable. Then see what kind of volume you'd need. THEN you chose a bike to convert based on the budget remaining and the volume/weight requirements of the system. (I'm an EE, so I figured out an efficient design process). Sure you could get a huge bike that handles like poo and fill it with 6grand worth of lifepo batteries, huge motor and controller.... but do you NEED that to meet your goals?


Lead is cheaper but heavier but allows for higher amps (more torque). Lifepo is more expensive but 1/3 the weight, and can't handle the amps that lead can. You would have a VERY hard time getting over 40 miles with lead though.

My pack isn't lifepo, they're AGM's (lead). I've got 10 12V 28Ah batteries in series and I'm making my own pack, battery balancing and charging system.

Lifepo doesn't come in preassembled packs, but they're not hard to make. Right now 20Ah batteries are about 37 bucks, 40Ah batteries are about 68 bucks, 60Ah are 102 bucks. If you needed a 6.5Kwh pack (100Wh/mile times 60 miles is about 6k plus extra for inefficiencies), and you used 40Ah cells you'd need 50cells in 2 cells in parallel, 25 of those in series to get about 82V nominal at 80Ah. 90 cubic inches (roughly) a piece, times 50 is 4500 cubic inches. About 2.6 cubic feet if they're all crammed together with no space in between, estimate more like 3-3.25Cu-ft. Thats about the inside size of a large mini fridge just for batteries. 50 cells of the 40Ah is 3400 bucks, no charger, no battery management system (REALLY important with lifepo). Then add to that the size of the motor, a controller and a charger.

get as small batteries as you can (they fit easier) and design a battery rack that will allow for several different ways to fit the batteries in the footprint. We built my first battery tray with lifepo in mind, and threw lead in there for now.

just my website, EValbum (for other bikes and personal websites) and manufacturer datasheets for controllers and motors and batteries/BMS/chargers. Its really bleeding edge, so you're going to have to research alot on your own. Don't just go on EV forums and say "so I want to build an EV", they'll just tell you to use the search button. When you have researched a little, know budget and have gotten a better idea of cost and complexity you can state "so, this is my plan, any comments".

 

sounds like a great project to me! keep it up!

 

It wouldnt SHOCK me if he is not AMPED up about his ELECTRIC bike anymore and this thread has been STATIC for awhile. I think hie Current thoughts are to switch it to bio fuel but then again I am Wired up on some allergy meds. If anyone has any LEADS of what happen to this bike Id like to hear a Positive outcome. Negitive people have no business in this Loop.

 

I'm around, bike is in limbo right now.....

worked with MotoCzysz on their TTXGP all electric motorcycle for a few months (race is tomorrow)....now I'm waiting on Lithium batteries for my motorcycle (6.4kwh compared to my original 2.5kwh) and a new controller.....

all new fairings from VFRCHUCK... gonna get it painted soon... things are going, just not documenting the "quiet" time..... there will be more soon.

 

I want to say this Frodo..."being a advocate of the earlier model VFR especially the 86 700, I find it an abomination as to what you have done to that bike.........that being said, I think its really a cool idea that you have come up with and I wish you lots of luck in getting it dialed in......in case you didn't notice I'm torn in two directions on your project....

Crusty

 

I know what you're saying.... but Abomination is a pretty strong word....but the bike hadn't been run in 10 years, gas tank was rusted out, engine seals were all gone, rubber seals cracked, engine was just about seized because he tried starting it and there was no oil at the pistons.... It was a basket case. Oh yeah, no title either. I got it because the chassis was in good shape.

The way I see it, I saved the bike and brought it forward to the next generation....when all of your engines are seized, broken, sloppy, running like crap in 10 years..... I'll still be riding around on my VFR.

I know, it seems like its so bad to dismantle the bike.... but it would have either been parted out or scrapped.... thats what he told me.

 

I think its frickin awesome. I just watched the videos on youtube. Abomination???? VFR's aren't sacred or immortal.

Keep us posted fro.

 

Frodus, keep up the great work man, and don't listen to people trying to bring you down. To each man his own, and its your bike, who cares what other people think, especially when your the one driving by gas stations.

I cant wait to make my own EV bike and Car. I've been researching, just have to get the money together to do it.

 

First lets get this straight.....I applaud you ...with a standing ovation for what you are definately doing........I think its a great Idea that has come to fruition....well, once you get the battery packs figured out..... I guess people think I am trying to bring you down...thats their opinion... and you know what they say about opinions, they are just like ash holes... everybodies got one......I wasn't bringing you down...shit at this point in your project the only thing that can bring you down would be a stealth fighter....you are on cloud nine. If you make this successful, you are in for some heafty grant money as well as possibly selling kits.......your a millionare already..

and about the bike..... I only saw the part where you said it was in like new condition quote "About the project:
The bike is a 1986 Honda VFR700F that I found in Florida for $400 with no title, in like new condition. Brand new tires, been stored for 10 years with $4270 miles on it. I got it shipped to Oregon for $675, and parted out the engine, exhaust and electrical and just about broke even. The bike was essentially free. The title was lost, but it checked out, so I found another frame for $150 and swapped it after engine removal."

so there is my heart break .....and yes I think the older VFR are sacred.... my opinion.

once again nicely done and I sincerly hope it goes the direction you want it.

and by the way I will conceed that out of all I guess the 86 would be the best one for a project like this....after all it IS the first VFR (and the lightest)


Peace out!

Crusty

 

Well, I was lucky enough to get involved with a team for the TTXGP (First zero emissions motorcycle race TTXGP - The Worlds First Zero Carbon, Clean Emission Grand Prix). I'm not working with a company in NY consulting them on their own commuter motorcycle. Started working with an EV parts business in Seattle and I'm still consulting for another local business here in PDX. Its right where I want to be... millionaire... not sure.... successful? we'll see. Quite my day job? not yet.

I don't disagree with the fact that taking a VFR apart was slightly "wrong".... I love that year VFR too, and you're not the only one that said that. In fact, I wish I could have gotten a newer bike (parts are hard to find for this VFR).... but you're right, it suits the needs very well. Its light, the frame is very squarish and easy to fit batteries into, its mostly aluminum....It won't be the last motorcycle I convert.

It sure does turn heads though. I'm in the middle of really customizing the bike ....new fairings, painting the fairings, wheels, centerstand, rear subframe, installing some newer style headlights, new batteries, new motor mount, o-ring chain, and an LCD dashboard (hopefully soon).

 

Here's my opinion on those bikes. The 750s were cool. The 700's were crap. An EV conversion is the best thing that could ever happen to a 700! And he's not taking it apart. He's replacing the crap motor it had in the first place. Now if he was doing this to limited edition 750? Well first we hunt down and do bad things to the guy let it go in the first place. THEN we lynch Frodus. But he has kept a VFR alive, and removed the scornful, horribly un-cool 700 motor. Good for you!

 

HEY there jaz !!! You're entitled to your opinion, sure, but do you have actual evidence for an intelligent opinion ??

The '86/'87 700 motors are very reliable and long-lived, not sure you know what you're spouting about???

The best electric bikes are ones DESIGNED that way from step #1, not converted.

When an electric bike can take me 400 miles in 5 hours with only 2 short stops like my '86 700, i might start to get interested.

 

Intelligent opinion about the 700's? No my brain shutters at the thought of them. They're like the fat ugly girl who likes you when you're a teenager. Sweet, probably reliable, but you have no interest, and sure as heck don't need the social ramifications of getting caught riding one. 700s are the bastard children of the Harley-Davidson tax. Did HRC make kits for the 700s? No. They just weren't cool. That bike is made WAY cooler by being made electric. If it makes you feel any better I feel the same about the VTEC bikes. Only they have better handling and looks. But any VFR without a gear whine, just isn't a VFR. It's a VF, and those just aren't cool either (except the old 500s and 1000s). Never mind the VTEC BS. It was an emissions ( noise and exhaust) measure that Honda thought they could make cool. It failed, marketing wise.

So intelligent argument? No. You can't intellectualize cool.

 

Sorry to steer away from direction of this thread, but......

Dude, the 700 and 750 motors are exactly alike except for a 2mm difference in stroke or bore ( forget which), and difference in HP is less than 5, so whatever applies to the 750 is the same for the 700 in practical terms.

Does a minimal 50cc make such a big difference to u ??

Heap your critical abuse upon any VF series engine and i'll join in.....

 

Hey frodus,
I personally think the Electric 1986 vfr700 is a very cool idea especially with the times and i cheer it on, you might get a copy of the transmission digest because you might be able to find a transmission to work for you in your situation, this idea is similar to my electric sonoma.
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Jaz, Now I don't mean to offend you but you have offended me, usually i keep to myself but this hits close to home for me since i own a few of them and you really need to figure out what your talking about at least around here mainly about our VFR's please, but you are entitled to your opinion, i have read what you have been saying about our beloved VFR's and i have to say i'm not happy, i see that you have a 1991 VFR750F and a 1986 VF500F? do you like them? some of us have these bikes and really love them, you seem to be a intelligent person somewhat so maybe you could tone down the harsh words which i can't find any truth or merit to, no one wants to hear someone talking crap about something they like.

Food for thought
maybe its better to keep quiet and have people think your a fool rather than open your mouth and take away all doubt.
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Crusty i see where you're coming from but maybe an Abomination is a pretty strong word?

 

Speed. I love my '91 VFR and my '86 VF500F. I was on the VF/VFR list for years. Just so you know. But I've never liked the 700s. They're just not cool. As I said above 750=cool, 700=not+cool, 500+1000=very+cool. But please don't be insulted. I was just stirring the pot with you 700 folks.:wink: Feel free to stir back. lol