UAW = Anti-USA dollar

Ghost · Jun 1, 2009

I work in the automotive industry. I am a bit privy to more information than the average American consumer. Fiat is going to be the saving grace of Chrysler. Fiatt is buying the largest stock % of Chrysler, and re-badging its current over seas lines to sell in the USA. Chrysler a US company? Not anymore. GM now announces its beginning of failure as well. The UAW has worked out a deal with GM corp. to not take bonuses and extra pay benefits this year, and promised not to strike until 2015, thus saving GM approx 1.3 billion dollars. YAY! As the reporters claim… might mention the majority of national reporters are part of a union… So instead of the projected 68,000 job lay offs, GM planned, the number looks more like 22,000. So, you see it? Ask yourself the question yet? I did.

“So what if we reduce the labor and overhead costs by dissolving the UAW from the big three, and re-hiring younger, more efficient, cheaper labor several yrs ago? Would we still be in this situation?”

Answer is a flat no. The average 30 yr UAW base salary is $70 to $80 per hr. Add in medical and benefit packages, and you get nearly $140,000 per year. Job Title? Fork lift operator. Machine operator. Pipe fitter. Line Mechanic.

http://www.heritage.org/research/economy/wm2162.cfm said:

December 8, 2008
UAW Workers Actually Cost the Big Three Automakers $70 an Hour
by James Sherk
WebMemo #2162
The United Auto Workers (UAW) wants Congress to bail out General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler to prevent their undergoing restructuring in bankruptcy proceedings. In bankruptcy, a judge could order union contracts to be renegotiated to reflect competitive realities. Many analysts have objected that hourly autoworkers at the Big Three are some of the most highly paid workers in America, costing the Big Three over $70 an hour in wages and current and future benefits. All taxpayers should not be taxed to preserve the affluence of a few.

Some observers argue that UAW members do not actually earn this much.[1] They argue this figure includes the cost of benefits paid to current retirees as well as wages and benefits paid to current workers and that the actual hourly earnings of current UAW members are much lower. This is a mistaken interpretation of the financial data released by the Detroit automakers.

Cash Compensation

Chart 1 shows the average hourly compensation for UAW workers and the average compensation for all private sector workers. These figures are based upon calculations by the Detroit automakers themselves as published in SEC filings, their annual reports, and other materials. According to briefing materials prepared by General Motors, "The total of both cash compensation and benefits provided to GM hourly workers in 2006 amounted to approximately $73.26 per active hour worked."

UAW workers are highly paid, but not all this compensation comes as cash wages. Breaking the $73.26 figure down, General Motors reports that it pays base wages of roughly $30 an hour. At the end of December 2006, the average vehicle assembler at GM earned $28.02 an hour; the average machine repair electrician earned $32.43.[2]

Other provisions raise cash earnings above this base pay. For example, workers at Ford earn 10 percent premium payments for taking midnight shifts and double time for overtime hours worked on Sundays.[3]

Autoworkers put in substantial overtime hours at higher rates, raising earnings above their base pay. GM reported that its average hourly employee worked 315 overtime hours in 2006. Including all monetary payments--base wages, shift premiums, overtime pay, as well as vacation and holiday pay--GM reported an average hourly pay of $39.68 an hour in 2006.[4] About 54 percent of the average UAW employee at GM's earnings came in cash in 2006.

Earned Benefits

The remaining $33.58 an hour of hourly labor costs that GM reports--46 percent of total compensation--was paid as benefits. These benefits include[5]:

Hospital, surgical, and prescription drug benefits;
Dental and vision benefits;
Group life insurance;
Disability benefits;
Supplemental Unemployment Benefits (SUB);
Pension payments to workers pensions accounts to be paid out at retirement;
Unemployment compensation; and
Payroll taxes (employer's share).
These benefits cost the Detroit automakers significant amounts of money. Critics contend that these benefit figures include the cost of providing retirement and health benefits to currently retired workers, not just benefits for current workers. Since there are more retired than active employees this makes it appear that GM employees earn far more than they actually do.

This contention contradicts the plain meaning of what the automakers have reported in SEC filings and in their public statements and would be contrary to generally accepted accounting principles.

Under the accounting rules established by the Financial Accounting Standards Board, the Detroit automakers must report their liability for future benefits as they accrue.[6] The hourly benefits figure includes payments into defined benefit pension plans to provide future pensions to current workers. It also includes the estimated costs of future retirement health benefits that current workers earn today.

Chrysler, for example, reports paying $20.14 an hour in health costs for its hourly employees. That figure includes the estimated cost of their health benefits in retirement, calculated according to Financial Accounting Standard 106.[7] The government does not allow Chrysler to promise to pay tens of thousands of dollars in health benefits in the future without reporting that cost on its balance sheets today.

Excludes Legacy Costs

The hourly benefit figures the Detroit automakers report covers the cost of current and future benefits earned by actively working employees. It does not include the cost of paying health benefits and pensions to current retirees.

Before they requested a bailout, the Big Three automakers specifically explained that their labor cost figures do not include the cost of past work. General Motors states in its filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission that:

GM maintains hourly and salaried benefit plans that provide postretirement medical, dental, vision, and life insurance to most U.S. and Canadian retirees and eligible dependents. The cost of such benefits is recognized in the consolidated financial statements during the period employees provide service to GM.[8]

In other words, GM records the expense for retiree benefits when workers earn the benefits, not years later when they collect their benefits. In less technical language, Ford explains that their total average hourly labor costs include:

(1) All the dollars paid to employees, (2) the cost of contractual benefits for employees, and (3) the cost of statutory payments, such as Social Security and Workers' Compensation--all calculated on the basis of hours worked by employees.[9]

Average hourly costs include the costs of wages and benefits (current and future) to employees divided by the number of hours worked by those same employees. It does not include the benefits paid to retirees.[10] This is in accord with standard accounting principles that require the Big Three to report their costs as they occur. Labor costs are the costs to the Detroit automakers of employing its current workers, not paying former workers for services performed decades ago.

Retirement Benefits Alone Cost $31 an Hour

The argument that retiree pension and health benefits inflate the hourly labor costs of the Detroit automakers cannot withstand basic scrutiny. For instance, General Motors UAW retirement plan paid $4.9 billion to 291,000 retirees and surviving spouses in 2006.[11] That works out to $31.04 an hour when apportioned among active workers.[12] That figure accounts for virtually all GM's benefit costs--before accounting for health care costs, disability benefits, supplemental unemployment benefits, or any of the other benefits GM provides. GM pays too much in retirement benefits to have labor costs of only $70 an hour if that figure included benefits to current retirees.

Labor Costs Similar Despite Retiree Differences

The Detroit automakers pay similar wages at each company despite having very different numbers of retirees to provide for. Table 1 shows the average hourly labor costs for the Big Three and the ratio of retirees to active workers at each company. General Motors has far more retirees per active worker than Ford or Chrysler. For each active worker at GM, there were 3.8 retirees or dependants in 2006. At Chrysler this ratio was half as much: two retirees for each worker. At Ford there were only 1.6 retirees per worker. If the hourly labor costs included retiree benefits, hourly wages at GM would be much higher than at either Ford or Chrysler.

But this is not the case. General Motors did not have the highest hourly labor costs despite having more retirees. Chrysler paid $2.60 an hour more in labor costs in 2006 than GM did. Ford paid only $2.75 an hour less than GM did, despite having half as many retirees relative to workers to provide for. All three automakers had roughly the same hourly labor costs despite having very different numbers of retirees to provide for. Hourly labor costs account for the expense of providing wages and benefits to current workers but do not include legacy costs.

Taxing the Many to Pay the Few

UAW spokespeople have roundly condemned the estimate of labor costs in excess of $70 per current worker hour. They assert these figures include the cost of current retiree pension and health benefits. They have done so, however, without marshalling evidence to support their case.

The Detroit automakers explain in their SEC filings that their benefit expenses are for current workers, not former employees. This is because they follow generally accepted accounting principles in preparing these estimates. If the figures did include current retiree benefits, the average hourly amount would be much higher than they actually report. UAW employees earn far more than most Americans do. Congress should not tax all Americans to bailout the Detroit automakers in order to preserve high earnings for a few.

James Sherk is Bradley Fellow in Labor Policy in the Center for Data Analysis at The Heritage Foundation.
Click to expand...

Forbes Magazine Dec said:

According to Forbes:
Labor cost per hour, wages and benefits for hourly workers, 2006.
Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)
GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)
Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)
Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)
According to AAUP and IES, the average annual compensation for a college professor in 2006 was $92,973 (average salary nationally of $73,207 + 27% benefits).
Bottom Line: The average UAW worker with a high school degree earns 57.6% more compensation than the average university professor with a Ph.D. (see graph above, click to enlarge), and 52.6% more than the average worker at Toyota, Honda or Nissan.
Many industry analysts say the Detroit Three, and especially Ford, must be on par with Toyota and Honda to survive. This year’s contract, they say, must be “transformational” in reducing pension and health care costs.
What would “transformational” mean? One way to think about: “transformational” would mean that UAW workers, most with a high school degree, would have to accept compensation equal to that of the average university professor with a Ph.D.
Click to expand...

That was 2006. so, now lets add the 1.3 billion per year till now. Whats that? Basic mathematics, 1.3billion times 3 years, for end of books in September = 3.9Billion dollars spent on benefits ALONE. Suppose the cut of pay went to that of our over seas competitors, $48 per hr. That’s a savings of $38 to $41 per hr, per person… one person could save ~ $60,000.00 a year.

Could you live off a pay of $60K a year? Fairly sure that answer is yes. And how many UAW employees work on avg per yr? ~1.2 million.
1.2 million workers, saving $60,000.00 per year = $7.2 trillion PER YEAR

2009, the US government gives nearly $40 billion dollars to two leading auto manufacturers.

By Kent Klein said:

Obama Rejects GM, Chrysler Bailout Plans

President Barack Obama says two of America's endangered automakers have not gone far enough to restructure their companies. President has rejected the plans General Motors and Chrysler submitted to receive government bailout money.

The U.S. auto industry has lost more than 400,000 jobs in the past year, and President Obama says the industry cannot be allowed to fail.

"We cannot, we must not, and we will not let our auto industry simply vanish. This industry is like no other," he said. "It is an emblem of the American spirit; a once and future symbol of America's success."
Click to expand...

As a fellow Generation X’er, I want to thank the Baby Boomers for handing us the world through the sun roofs of their sports cars, sport utility vehicles, and the rest of their extra vehicles while they speed off to that little vacation spot in Florida or Cruise ship as they retire. It’s as though I just went to Burger King, ask for nothing less than the guy in front of me, and was handed an incomplete and inaccurate order, as the company goes bankrupt. What am I going to do with onion rings and a half a milkshake with no lid? And further that question… What about my kids who are in line behind me?

The American Greed sees no boundry.

I love reading the comments from this site:
http://www.truthout.org/122608LA

(Edited: Some misspellings)

KC-10 FE · May 29, 2009

I don't care how, who, why, what, etc... The US auto industry deserves everything it gets. It was just announced on the news that GM goes Chapter 11 Bankrupcy on Monday morning. Is anyone really surprised? With a few notable exceptions, does GM produce anything worth buying anymore? Not really. Chrysler never has. Ford sucks large but at least they are still above water for the time being.

I am a consumer who has been attempting to purchase a vehicle for the last 18 months. I can't find anything I want & the makers wont make what I will purchase. Read my thread about the Chevy Camaro or my thread about truck shopping. The industry DOES NOT care about the consumer. It cares about it's own bottom line. While looking out for profits is a complete necessity for any company, profits mean nothing if you don't produce a quality product.

That leads to the subject of the UAW. I don't care if you support unions or not. The UAW has completely ruined the US auto industry. $70 an hour to put lug nuts on truck wheels? Anyone who thinks that is a realistic wage is crazy. I do sincerely hope the UAW goes under & dissapears. The industry might stand a chance with them gone. If they don't go away, the US auto industry is finished & it's only a matter of time until the end.

KC-10 FE out...
lane: :usa2:

FJ12rydertoo · May 29, 2009

KC-10 FE said: ↑

...The UAW has completely ruined the US auto industry. ...

KC-10 FE out...
lane: :usa2:
Click to expand...

Nope.

They aren't the ones who get hundreds of thousands and/or millions of dollars designing cars you don't want. If GM couldn't afford to pay the salaries, they should not have signed a contract to that affect. The guys on the lines that put these cars together make diddly compared to what the people in charge of thiniking up, marketing, and engineering the cars that no one wants to buy. They are at the bottom and everyone knows sh*t rolls downhill, so guess who gets the blame. And it's easy to blame someone who seems to make so much money for so little (perceived) effort.

They do have to share in the blame, but they are not the major cause.

Yes, I am a union supporter. Could ya tell? :smile:

Sebspeed · May 29, 2009

Screw the unions. They had their place when workplaces were unsafe, people were truly being taken advantage of, etc. In this day and age they're just leeches.

squirrelman · May 29, 2009

A large part of the ecomomic load on the auto companys is costs of health care, which should be single-payer, government organized ......just as civilized countries like Canada or UK.

NO one needs to spend the wasteful 30-40% premium paid to health insurance administrators like Blue Cross, Univera, Independent Health, etc. This is an area where Obama needs to step up but won't.
The enormous contributions from the health care industry lobbyists to congressmen guarantee that we will probably never fix the health care problem in this country.

FJ12rydertoo · May 29, 2009

Sebspeed said: ↑

Screw the unions. They had their place when workplaces were unsafe, people were truly being taken advantage of, etc. In this day and age they're just leeches.
Click to expand...

There are people who will argue that none of the above facts about a lot of workplaces have changed that much, only the wages have gone down. :smile:

Unions are still necessary, the only difference now is people aren't smart enough to realize it.

That's all I'm going to say on the subject. Arguments about unions and religion usually just lead to hard feeling, flame wars, and such. No one changes anyone else's opinion.

Catch you again on Labor Day. :thumbsup:

DrBob · May 29, 2009

squirrelman said: ↑

A large part of the ecomomic load on the auto companys is costs of health care, which should be single-payer, government organized ......just as civilized countries like Canada or UK.

NO one needs to spend the wasteful 30-40% premium paid to health insurance administrators like Blue Cross, Univera, Independent Health, etc. This is an area where Obama needs to step up but won't.
The enormous contributions from the health care industry lobbyists to congressmen guarantee that we will probably never fix the health care problem in this country.
Click to expand...

Dude, perhaps you should move to Canada or the UK. Haven't you noticed the mess that government makes of everything that they put their hands in? Have they done a good job with Medicare and Medicaid? Have they done a good job with the Social Security trust fund? Have they done a good job managing environmental policies that have had a part in destroying the automakers? Government has given us a national debt of more than 11 trillion dollars and have put us on the hook for somewhere around 63 trillion in future obligations. THE MONEY TO DO HEALTHCARE DOES NOT EXIST!!!

Healthcare is 1/6 of GDP and you are going to trust these idiots with control over it. Let's just give government control over all aspects of our lives. Let's let them tell us who can get an MRI, how long we can stay in a hospital, what surgeries we can have, and what medications we can take. We need less government intervention and markets that are more open and less regulated. We need to encourage competition among insurers by allowing people to cross state lines to purchase their insurance plans. We can pay a 30% premium on healthcare to a private sector business into which we can invest for a dividend, or we can pay a 40% premium on healthcare benefits to some vested bureaucrat with all the enthusiasm for their work as the most most disgruntled DMV agent.

Maybe you don't pay enough in taxes already, but I do and I am sick of carrying water for a bunch of leeches.

squirrelman · May 29, 2009

GOVERNMENT does need reform and even more oversight. Seems like nobody in government administration can ever be fired for corruption or incompetenance and that needs to change.

Governments in UK, Canada, even Cuba can provide decent health care for all citizens,and we could too if health services could be separated from politics and the undue influence of the health insurance industry.

DrBob · May 29, 2009

squirrelman said: ↑

GOVERNMENT does need reform and even more oversight. Seems like nobody in government administration can ever be fired for corruption or incompetenance and that needs to change.

Governments in UK, Canada, even Cuba can provide decent health care for all citizens,and we could too if health services could be separated from politics and the undue influence of the health insurance industry.
Click to expand...

There goes the problem...

1) It's all about politics (That is why we need term limits).
2) Who is going to oversee the government (It was supposed to be the media, but they are all in the tank for the Democratic Party).
3) The realities of the Canadian, UK, and Cuban healthcare systems may be very different from what you perceive them to be.

I deal with the influences of governmental intervention into healthcare every day. Their policies increase costs and decrease efficiency in healthcare delivery. We need to get the government out of healthcare.

My practice partner had an idea that the government would never accept because it takes power away from them. As healthcare providers, we would be more than happy to provide MORE free care to disadvantaged people if we were allowed to take a tax deduction based upon the value of the FREE services we provide. The poor people would be cared for and government entitlement funds would benefit also. Why wouldn't the government go for such a plan??? Because they are cut out of the equation, dis-empowered, and unable to exert themselves to exhort taxes from the doctors to pay bureaucrats and to buy votes from those dependent on government.

squirrelman · May 29, 2009

Maybe we could elicit some comments from European, Canadian, or other countries on this site about how they precieve thier socialized health care systems ?? I don't think the Canadians or Brits have many complaints.

There's lot of propaganda about how bad government-run health care can be, but it comes from representatives of the health care insurance industry, so don't believe it !!

DrBob · May 29, 2009

squirrelman said: ↑

Maybe we could elicit some comments from European, Canadian, or other countries on this site about how they precieve thier socialized health care systems ?? I don't think the Canadians or Brits have many complaints.

There's lot of propaganda about how bad government-run health care can be, but it comes from representatives of the health care insurance industry, so don't believe it !!
Click to expand...

The governmentally controlled model is bad now and will get worse later. It is not sustainable. I use less than 500 dollars of medical benefits a year. Others use tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars of benefits a year (many of whom are just abusers of our emergency rooms, drug-seekers, etc.) I cannot afford the taxes that it will require to take care of these other people who are not similarly invested in the system.

Furthermore, if you don't mind having the government to control every little aspect of your life, that is fine. When the government slaps a 4-5 dollar surcharge on top of your BigMac to fund this healthcare project... let me know how happy you are with that system. Conceivably, they could add a new tax to everyone who drives because people get hurt in crashes and have to go to the hospital. How about an extra 500 dollar a year tax to own and operate a motorcycle because people who ride bikes are less protected than people in cars?

NorcalBoy · May 29, 2009

It is what it is, nobody seemed to whine about any of this shit until the economy crashed and people didn't have disposable income to waste on cars, trucks and suv's. Everyone associated with the industry cut a fat hog in the ass for many years, now shit goes south and it's everybody elses fault. Welcome to the real world.

NorcalBoy · May 29, 2009

DrBob said: ↑

The governmentally controlled model is bad now and will get worse later. It is not sustainable. I use less than 500 dollars of medical benefits a year. Others use tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars of benefits a year (many of whom are just abusers of our emergency rooms, drug-seekers, etc.) I cannot afford the taxes that it will require to take care of these other people who are not similarly invested in the system.

Furthermore, if you don't mind having the government to control every little aspect of your life, that is fine. When the government slaps a 4-5 dollar surcharge on top of your BigMac to fund this healthcare project... let me know how happy you are with that system. Conceivably, they could add a new tax to everyone who drives because people get hurt in crashes and have to go to the hospital. How about an extra 500 dollar a year tax to own and operate a motorcycle because people who ride bikes are less protected than people in cars?
Click to expand...

Is that you Rush?

NorcalBoy · May 29, 2009

Ghost said: ↑

I work in the automotive industry. I am a bit privy to more information than the average American consumer. Fiatt is going to be the saving grace of Chrysler. Fiatt is buying the largest stock % of Chrysler, and re-badging its current over seas lines to sell in the USA. Chrysler a US company? Not anymore. GM now announces its beginning of failure as well. The UAW has worked out a deal with GM corp. to not take bonuses and extra pay benefits this year, and promised not to strike until 2015, thus saving GM approx 1.3 billion dollars. YAY! As the reporters claim… might mention the majority of national reporters are part of a union… So instead of the projected 68,000 job lay offs, GM planned, the number looks more like 22,000. So, you see it? Ask yourself the question yet? I did.

“So what if we reduce the labor and overhead costs by dissolving the UAW from the big three, and re-hiring younger, more efficient, cheaper labor several yrs ago? Would we still be in this situation?”

Answer is a flat no. The average 30 yr UAW base salary is $70 to $80 per hr. Add in medical and benefit packages, and you get nearly $140,000 per year. Job Title? Fork lift operator. Machine operator. Pipe fitter. Line Mechanic.

That was 2006. so, now lets add the 1.3 billion per year till now. Whats that? Basic mathematics, 1.3billion times 3 years, for end of books in September = 3.9Billion dollars spent on benefits ALONE. Suppose the cut of pay went to that of our over seas competitors, $48 per hr. That’s a savings of $38 to $41 per hr, per person… one person could save ~ $60,000.00 a year.

Could you live off a pay of $60K a year? Fairly sure that answer is yes. And how many UAW employees work on avg per yr? ~1.2 million.
1.2 million workers, saving $60,000.00 per year = $7.2 trillion PER YEAR

2009, the US government gives nearly $40 billion dollars to two leading auto manufacturers.

As a fellow Generation X’er, I want to thank the Baby Boomers for handing us the world through the sun roofs of their sports cars, sport utility vehicles, and the rest of their extra vehicles while they speed off to that little vacation spot in Florida or Cruise ship as they retire. It’s as though I just went to Burger King, ask for nothing less than the guy in front of me, and was handed an incomplete and inaccurate order, as the company goes bankrupt. What am I going to do with onion rings and a half a milkshake with no lid? And further that question… What about my kids who are in line behind me?

The American Greed sees no boundry.

I love reading the comments from this site:
http://www.truthout.org/122608LA
Click to expand...

Would it really concern you if it didn't effect you on a presonal level? I didn't think so. Why are you worried? You should be set for life anyway with your name on that transmission patent and all.

DrBob · May 29, 2009

NorcalBoy said: ↑

Is that you Rush?
Click to expand...

Mega-dittos.

NorcalBoy · May 29, 2009

DrBob said: ↑

Mega-dittos.
Click to expand...

Just another person who sees their little place in life infringed upon by reallity, and thus feels it's necessary to justify why it's so wrong because it's happening to them. :thumbsup:

Ghost_Rider · May 29, 2009

NorcalBoy said: ↑

You should be set for life anyway with your name on that transmission patent and all.
Click to expand...

:rofl:

I wonder how often he looks at the mirror each day telling himself how great he is. Where is deepdish when you need him?

If it is possible for ghost's ego to get any BIGGER he is gonna have to start sleeping in the garage to get his head out the door!

DrBob · May 29, 2009

NorcalBoy said: ↑

Just another person who sees their little place in life infringed upon by reallity, and thus feels it's necessary to justify why it's so wrong because it's happening to them. :thumbsup:
Click to expand...

I've always been against oppressive government. It is a principle of mine.

Why don't you tell me why I should be happy to have the government expanding itself in to all aspects of our lives... taking from those who work to earn to give to those who won't?

Why should I be happy that the government creates and traps people into dependency classes? We've watched a 40 year long "War on Poverty" that has lead to transfer of 10 trillion dollars, and guess what!!! WE STILL HAVE THE SAME NUMBER OF POOR PEOPLE. We have more incarcerated people than ever. We have more single parent families than ever. We have just as many or more high school dropouts than ever. We spend billions and billions and billions of dollars on healthcare and you people act like a poor man cannot get a shot of penicillin. The geniuses in our government just set aside millions of dollars to fund laser tattoo removal. Why didn't they spend that money on insulin for poor diabetics? Do you not realize what an abject failure the welfare state has been?

Do you have your hand out or are you getting your pocket picked?

squirrelman · May 29, 2009

THE out-of-control military budget, the misconcieved "war on terror," the bank and industry bailouts are stripping our country of the resources to educate our children, provide health care to the truly indigent, repair infrastructure, and provide the basic social services any civilized society should prioritize.

This country is incapable of reform because congressional "campaign contributions" amount to legalized bribery, and Washington is ruled by well-financed corporate lobbiests .

oss · May 29, 2009

no he's just living in a carbon copy af austria, i guess most people aren't tired of carrying the load of all the social leaches.

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