Bubba's thoughts on "Chicken Strips" and "VFR's on the Dragon"

Redrover and some others got me thinking about the two above mentioned threads:

I completely understand your POV Red when it comes to riding hard and discussing it on a open forum where newbies may be present. It is true they want or do emulate the quicker more skilled riders of the group which results in their crashing or worse. But there is more to this that should be fleshed out.

I’ll use Two4One as and myself as examples. I’ve met Two personally, now I don’t know him well I have watched him ride at the track. He’s smooth, consistent and fast. He wasn’t arrogant or cocky when we talked. He is what I considered a truly ‘skilled’ rider. Not a perfect rider, just a really skilled one. Now when you meet people like Two they generally have a different outlook on riding. They probably understand the risks of riding way more than most of us mere mortals who won’t or can’t achieve that level of proficiency. Two will put a knee down on the street, something that is arguably not a good idea and may send the wrong message to ‘new’ riders and is against the law in three States I’ve lived in. But I think this is where the ‘skilled’ rider has a different perspective than the newb or the semi-skilled rider who is a dumbass in judgment. I am willing to bet if Two went down or got busted by the cops, he would not post anything up about how ‘unfair’ it is. He’d take his lumps. I think that attitude is what separates the newb from the skilled. It really comes down to judgment and discernment regarding the situation. Two things often lacking in riders minds.

Derstuka once asked me a question that was really good. “Why do I (BZ) always go after the squids, but not the ‘skilled’ riders who kill themselves on the street”? At the time I didn’t have an answer because I didn’t really know any skilled riders. However, attending track days has changed that. I’ve now seen these riders and I think I can better shed some light on his question using myself.

I thought I knew about riding until I started to do track days. I am now learning more than I ever thought possible and have achieved some personal goals in riding with new goals set for myself this year. God willing, I’ll achieve them. But in receiving more skill a rider has to increase ones judgment and discernment. Yes, I can get my knee down, yes, I can pass some fellow riders on much faster more modern equipment. But I am still in B group for a reason. I am inconsistent with my lines, my braking needs mucho work and I don’t always fully relax when I am hanging off the bike. And I am sure I have other issues a more skilled rider could point out. But my point is I’ve achieved some things that can easily feed my ego the wrong way. It’s easy to be on the back roads and some squids on R1’s want to show you up. Now I can tell right away I can take them once the corners start, but I don’t. And it’s hard not to do it. I’m 34 and it’s like my maturity starts to go out the window because I have skill they don’t posses. Yes, I’ll admit it’s fun handing someone their ass, especially when they are on equipment that should bury you. But in the end, the victory is hollow; I win nothing, but have everything to lose. And that is the separation. Some riders, like myself, start to advance in skill, but don’t advance their judgment and discernment and the trouble begins. They make bad passes on the track. They ride on the street is if it were the track. They take every challenge personal and ‘man up’ to it. I know this because I myself have to suppress the urges to act like an idiot because of the simple fact I can. I think the fact that California has canyon roads to ride on only exacerbates Durstukas question. So my answer is many riders have skill, but not the judgment to match the skill they have received.

I sincerely pray as my skill increases, my judgment does too. But both must receive equal attention and exercise.

In closing I think Two4One and others I have met have achieved that level, so it is harder for me to pass judgment because they know the score. They are responsible for themselves and fully know this fact. When I see the squid pop a wheelie, pass me, then almost not make the really easy turn in the road up ahead when they lowered the bike back down, of course I heap scorn upon them. But when I see pics of Two and PA riding the Dragon, I have a different outlook.

I am trying to reach the level of proficiency Two and others are at. But it’s hard folks to keep it suppressed on the street. Now I’ve slowed way down in my street speeds, but have I hung off? Yes. Have I come thur corners where people see me like that? Yes, your honor. I am guilty. And it has really made me think. Just because I can, doesn’t mean I should.

This is hard to explain to the newb. They see the skill and want it, but don’t want the responsibility that comes with it. Kind of like the friend/ acquaintance many of you know who bought a nice Glock pistol for their 22nd birthday and wield it around at parties and when they shoot it can’t hit crap. It’s the same with motorcycles.

It makes it hard for the skilled to have an open conversation to the newb. It’s hard to explain, follow the rules, when the skilled don’t always do that. It’s hard to explain that judgment is as important as skill. They cannot be separated. It is very hard to explain personal responsibility for the risks you take.

Again, as my skill increases I pray my judgment and discernment do too. May you all see this the same way.

BZ

 

wow Bubba, that was nicely put. Now take me for instance.. I have been riding motorcycles since I was allowed to drive. got pulled over my first time for doing well into the triple digits. the cop gave me a HUGE break. that was in 88. now I've owned bikes off and on since then the longest break being the last 10 years... now my skills are ok I know enough about riding to keep from killing myself, but the Newbies,the ones that go to a dealer and buy the biggest baddest bike they can, I blame the dealerships that sell them..yeah they are out to make money but how about keeping people around to make thier second purchase?

BTW what states is it illegal to drag a knee? not that I have ever done that on the street(or have done it in the last 10 years) I don't remember seeing that on any test htat I ahve taken Just asking not saying your wrong

 

I asked Rossi what he thought of slowing down on streets and this is what he had to say:



that settles it for me!

 

From my understanding of what the traffic code says, it would fall under "reckless driving". In addition, if you are hanging off, then you are most likely going over the speed limit my some amount.

I haven't looked at every State either.


BZ

 

LOL!

That's not what Rossi said at the end of the documentry "Faster".

 

Bubba,

Well put.

Now from someone that is TRULY a noob... (well not noob to the earth (35 years old)). I have a HUGE amount of respect for bikes and what they can do. I'm jazzed about riding, and can't wait to finish up my MSF course so that I can get on the road officially.

That being said, I know that there is a TON about these bikes and riding that I don't fully understand and I am willing and thirsting for that knowledge. Having been around some very fast cars and doing some pretty stupid things in them, I know what going fast is about, and I have no desire to do some of those same stupid things on a bike. My car has air bags... my bike does not... lol

I will not only be taking the beginner course, but the advanced courses. I also intend on taking some track courses as I want to see what my baby can do on the track.

That being said, I fully realize the difference between what should and what should not be done on the street. I have no intention of making my wife a widow and leaving my kids with no Daddy to raise them. I fully intend on being a responsible rider on the street, and leave the fast stupid stuff for the "safety" of a race track.

I know that these thoughts are not of the stereotypical noob, but there it is...

 

Thanks, Bubba. Well put.
Judgment is huge. All the skill in the world means exactly crap if you clobber a little kid who runs out in the street after a ball.
As my skill increases, so does my speed. But where to use it? And when? I have no track close by and none of the funds needed to go there. So how am I supposed to get better?
Get crazy on the residential streets and freeways?
HELL NO. That is how people get killed.
Should I go out riding at 3pm when all of the school buses are out and the teenagers in their cars talking on phones with stereos blasting?
HELL NO.
Should I go for a cruise at 7am when the deer are still roaming about and yuppie moms are rushing to get kids to school while calling work to say they are running behind?
NOPE.
In all of the above situations I follow the rules(as much as possible) and ride smart and safe. Just yesterday I got stuck behind a school bus. It sucked, but I waited until it was legal to pass. I will not be responsible for running a bus load of kids off the road. Nor will I be responsible for traumatizing a bus load of kids by being smeared under said bus because I was caught squidding around it.
The best time and place for me to ride at a pace that allows for use of my budding skills is this:
off peak traffic on nonresidential streets. I am blessed to have open road ways in rural settings with next to no traffic and awesome turns and straights.
Am I tempted to throttle up in town, of course. But I remind myself that it could be my kid that jumps out in front of me. I also remind myself that my kids want me to come home, instead of me getting munched on the freeway because I made a stupid pass.

 

well put Drewler

 

Yes! Some very good points here. Thanks especially to Bubba for opening himself to potential criticism for being honest and saying what many of us think.
The important balance points here revolve around the fact that it is your choice to ride the way you want to but those choices must be tempered by the very real fact that you do not do these things alone. You must be aware that you need to consider:
1) the general public (don't endanger the road-going public with your wreckless riding)
2) other riders (don't set bad examples that other, less educated and skilled riders might emulate)
3) your family (don't leave them without a brother, father, husband, etc.)
4) The Man (don't play if you cannot pay the citations and lawyerly fees)
5) the future of motorcycling (if enough people cause enough problems for themselves and others, motorcycling will be legislated into oblvion)

What are YOUR balance points? What are mine? They are all different. That difference creates the tension. Discussion only helps. Thanks for joining in.

 

Great thread Bubba
I have been riding for 27 yrs and 4 years road racing.
I can ride my bike to its limits, I can brake so hard it would make your eyes bleed and
YES I have "chicken strips" on my street bike tires.

I ride well within my limits on the street, but those are my limits and last year I had someone riding with me go down ( lucky they did not get hurt at all ) tryn' to keep my pace ( even thou I explained to them to ride at own pace NOT MINE ) that person thought cause I was riding two up that they could in fact stay with me.

I have changed the way I ride w/ others now, I will keep a pace well under my comfort zone and I make sure that any move I make on the bike will keep others riding w/ me safe as well.
( 4/19 the multi camper pass could be viewed as crazy but I had a 3/4 mile line of site of clear road and campers were doing 15-20 mph ) I'm sure the guys who rode with me on that day will weigh in on that at some point on thier take on that move.

In my opinion dragging a knee on a public road is bad practice and should be done only at the track. ( I am guilty of a few times going out by myself and wearing my leathers and dragging my knee- but I know the risk I am taking ) I will not do this w/ others only by myself and only on one of two roads that I feel safe on, to not put others life in danger.

New riders always want to ride w/ the faster guys to learn, but this often leads them to ride above their skill level.

What I do is if someone who wants to ride w/ me and learn, I put them in front and I ride behind them and stop them from time to time and let them know what I see good and bad, then off to U - Mass or some place like that ( on a Sunday when it is closed and no traffic ) hit one of the big parking lots and go over what I feel they need to work on.

New guys watching videos of guys dragging knees, crossing over the line will just pick up bad habits and will most likely end up getting hurt or worse. I like to watch them as much as the next guy but to go out and do that I will pass, but some will get ramped up enough to go out and try it. ( maybe a disclaimer on the next one guys?? ) and show the tree of shame so others can see how many have gone down doing the same thing you got away with without crashing.

I have had many close calls w/ cars not seeing me, I drive like everyone is out to kill me therefore I can not stress how important it is to pay attn, and I can say that the two times I have crashed on the street were 110% my fault due to "SHOWING OFF " and nothing else.

WE are not as good as we tell ourselves we are, if so we would all be Valentino Rossi

 

even though we are friends...the last person I want to look up and see is Drewl with a big ol needle to stick into my arm...no offense buddy but seeing you when we can is enough I dont want to meet you on a professional basis.

 

Great post Bubba. I lost two friends in accidents when I was learning to ride in Texas while the Army in the 70s (young, wild, unlicensed and uninsured). I stopped riding, but when I came back to NYC in the 80s I got the urge to get on a bike again and decided to do it correctly. I took the BRC and got my license and bought a bike. I was by myself and had no friends that rode. I found and read Total Control by Lee Parks and attended his Advanced Rider Clinic (ARC). I learned so much it really opened up my eyes and helped me to ride with more control of the bike and more confindence because I knew what to do - this also made riding FUN!!!! I started to become a safer rider and more conscious of hazzards on the road without fear. I went back to the riding school and certified as an ARC Coach. This made me more conscious of the example I set when riding. I was really hyped about going to the track because I had some skills now - lol. My frist trackday was a big learning experience and at the end of the day I realized that I am a student for life. I saw other riders on the track that were putting it down for real and they made it look easy. This was also my first exposure to trail braking. The ARC training which is all about cornering skills and suspension theory basics (setting up your bike suspension) prepared me for a trackday. Now I gotta tell ya I really feel lucky because I did not have any friends who rode a motorcycle and had no one to ask questions or get information. I was lucky to find Lee Parks (only because I read his book and saw he did clinics in the NYC area) and get some training before something bad happened to me. So my feeling is that some squids exist because motorcycle training information is not being promoted as well as it could be and also the cost of advanaced level training. No excuses but the numbers of squids will grow if they do not know where and who to talk to about getting some training. You would think the DMV would have a MSF brochure or something, but I found MSF on my own by luck. I took the BRC at a Junior College so why not promote the BRC at the College??? Money is actually no excuse because you can possibly talk to someone in a Motrocycle Club. In the past MCs would look out for independent riders and if a friendship developed they might become club members. There are still some MCs that look out for and help new and independent riders. Also I feel the dealerships may want to help get guys to training also - they will buy more stuff for touring and trackdays. Ah another thing about a legitimate MC is that they will make sure their members have their papers together and are not running wild on the road. So while I do not believe that there is one answer to the squid problem, I think a major portion of the population of squids could be lowered with proper training and club mentorship. Not bad for a guy who started riding on a Honda CB 350 lol - just my two cents hope it helps.

 

Man Bubba, you sure have been doing a lot of thinking lately.. midlife crisis time??? :unsure:

I totaly agree with your original post and applaud the fact that you had the round steel pair for posting it. I've been riding for over 14 years and I would say I'm not the fastest guy in the pack. I limit my speeds on the streets to slightly sane levels but I'll be the first to admit I'll be over the speed limit on most of the canyon roads in my area. It just doesn't make sense to me to ride at track speeds on public roads where a car, person or roadkill could be right around the next corner. Do I do it; yes and I enjoy it but I understand the risks and will take the consiquenses if something happens. But some people I see will ride a wheelie for a quarter mile down a freeway or pull a stoppie at almost every stop light and think nothing about the risks. these people should be pimp slapped and atomic weggied right off their bikes. i have yet to do a track day or track school but I plan on this in the very near extra fund acheiving future. The track is truely the only place where exploring the limits should be displayed.

 

Shit Bubba, I wanted to get some work done today. This thread is going to ruin everything!

I will respond when I have time to contribute a worthwhile response.

 

First off, Bubba, no offense whatsoever about using me for reference.

Second, let me start by saying I LOVE TO RIDE. I always have and provided I don't have physical or other issues that would prevent it, I will always ride. I bought my first sportbike, an '04 1000RR, specifically for the purpose of going to the track and learning to ride it. There was no other reason. Sure I wanted to ride it on the street but my main purpose was to hit the track. I remember looking at photos of guys hanging off the bike with amazement wondering if I could do the same thing. I could have made a better bike selection to learn but this is what I went with as most new riders do. A bigger motor is always better until you are educated in the ways of the twisties, just ask any Harley owner.

I have always had a natural affliction for all things two wheeled and/or motorized. I have a pretty good set of athletic and coordination skills, which cannot be ignored when it comes to riding. That being said, I was able to progress pretty quickly with NESBA into the Advanced group after purchasing a used, track-ready 97 Honda F3. I took my licks including being hit twice by other riders. Broken bones, hematoma's and shoulder issues were normal to me for close to a year.

I had a moment of truth in June of 07 I believe when I had my first serious crash due to my own lack of judgment. I was flying around Summit Jefferson at the top of the Advanced group maxing out both the bike and myself. The rear end was all over the place. I was entering turns hard on the brakes and sliding around like a mad man. I heard the bike telling me things, but I didn't listen. One lap I went into turn one hard on the brakes, hit a white line painted on the track and down I went...HARD! I broke my right shoulder blade from the impact. Ever been hurt bad enough where as soon as it happens you know you're in trouble? Yeah this is what happened. Immediate pain and discomfort. Having been injured in one way or another for what seemed like an eternity, I reached by breaking point. I took some time away to heal. I did a couple more track days at a slow, unconfident pace before I sold the F3.

Fast forward to a year ago when I started going to the track again with PaRedVFRRider. At first I was just glad to be back out there without fear of getting hurt. I enjoyed riding for the sake of riding and not trying to better my time every lap. I made the mistake of getting confidence in the front tire again after a day on the VFR at Summit Jefferson. I knew I was in trouble because I had the itch again. I wanted to go to the track...a lot!

I decided to go a different way this time around. Having been through a liter bike and a 600, I decided I would go back to basics. I bought a '02 SV650. Let me tell you, this little bike has taught me more about riding then any bike I've ever owned. You have to be smooth and precise on this bike to go fast which is the key anyone will tell you. I am riding at a level I have never ridden before. I am smoother, better on the brakes, I can feel the tiniest input from tires and...here's the biggest thing: I AM LISTENING TO THE BIKE AND THE VOICES IN MY HEAD. Prior to this resurgence, I would ignore it and go with my balls instead. I don't have any fear at this point, which is why it is really important for me to listen to the bike, and myself knowing full well the lessons I learned from the past. Older, wiser and better.

Bubba, the guy you saw riding in October/November is not the same guy now. I have progressed to another level at this point. I've received many flattering remarks from fellow track riders including a couple racers about my riding. It's nice to hear. It all started at Jennings in January. I picked up the pace considerably and followed through some more at Carolina Motorsports Park in February. I can honestly and humbly say I think I am flying right now. Good on the brakes, smooth as silk...good times! Not a concern in the world about crashing due to my feeling from the tires.

Does the above-mentioned scenario add to an increased pace on the street? Of course it does. I always had a "faster" pace and as long as I can remember I was touching knees down on every street ride. The only thing I can say in defense is it is "my" pace. I never feel out of control on the street. Not now, not ever before. To your point, I AM FULLY accepting of the fact that one day I will go down again or I will get myself a ticket. That's why I drive the speed limit in my truck. I don't want to waste a good speeding ticket on four wheels. You will also never see me on a highly traveled road other then to get to a nice twisty section. I would never intentionally put someone at risk for my own personal enjoyment. Now some may say I'm already doing that but that's a subjective thought. We're risking everything each time we walk out the front door in the morning who's to say which is more dangerous?

After riding in TN for four days, I have an overwhelming desire to hit the track again. I need to purge some aggression that builds up over time. Anybody that has a passion for anything knows that you have to scratch the itch every now and then. This is another part of maturity. I realize I have to hit the track soon or I will start looking for a way to relieve some built up energy. Where else can I do that but on the street if I don't hit the track? Recognizing little things like this have helped keep me alive. My senses are in tune, my mind is in tune and my skills are a complement to those factors. That being said, there's no way to predict someone in my lane coming around a blind corner. One thing I can do is taking the steps to avoid a disaster. My main goal while in Deal's Gap was to stay in my lane. Overall I think I did a good job.

You also have to know that I have no anchors. I'm single, not even dating. There is no one at home in the back of my mind saying "slow down". I have it VERY easy in terms of guilt free riding. If I had a child or a wife, I'm sure I would feel the parachute open up very quickly.

Long story short, everyone has their own pace, rides their own ride and gets enjoyment out of different things. I know what that is for me and I'm sure everyone on here knows it too. All I know is I would take my chances of survival doing 120 on a back road vs. a newbie doing a wheelie on the freeway any day.

One last thing concerning the initial post. The opening statement "I completely understand your POV Red when it comes to riding hard and discussing it on a open forum where newbies may be present. It is true they want or do emulate the quicker more skilled riders of the group which results in their crashing or worse" kinda' bothers me. Really? This is like school administrators taking every possible threat away from a kid "for their own good". There is no way hiding things from anyone, especially adults, will make them safer or more responsible. At some point everyone is accountable including me.

Ride your own ride. Chances are you're not having fun if you don't.

 

Amen to that.

 

"Ride your own ride. Chances are you're not having fun if you don't."

+1

 

What a contrast this Thread is to some of the recent, um, well...not-so-interesting Threads lately!
Great stuff, Gents! :thumbsup:

 

Thus concludes another episode of "Deep Thoughts By Bubba Zanetti.." Tune in Next week when he reaches total enlightenment while drinking a beer...And thus beer shoots out of his nose.....

All kidding asside Good thoughts well done!

 

I appreciate all of you sharing your thoughts.

Real dialogue is rare in todays day and age of celebrated idiocy.

Two4One, if you are smoother and faster than last year? WOW!

I am looking at the bottom of that big mountain of track riding. I've started to climb the hill. Much like your beginnings when I saw the pics of riders on the track. I wanted that to be me. I wanted to see if I could 'do'it'. My wife asked me what I want for a track bike. I smiled and said SV650 or RS250 two-stroke for the very reasons you stated. Those bikes TEACH you how to do it right. That last track day we were at the lightbulb went off regarding corner speed. On a 11 year old bike that was dynoed at 92HP, its an importatnt concept to understand. I pray I reach the level you're at Two because that's where my sights are aimed.

I unfortunantley don't have enough time to expound on everything people posted. But again, thank you all, very good posts and insights.

God bless you VFRW brothers.

BZ