Running Problem?

hmmmmm...... that would be about right. its seven miles to work. it does feel sometimes like you are out of gas. right before I get to work.


hmm. better check that out though! thanks for the tip!

 

Keep in mind also that your fuel pump is allowed to work through the fuel cut relay, which is wired to your ignition. So...if you lose spark, your fuel pump loses it's signal to pump.

Listen to JD. Over the course of 25 years as a tech, I've diagnosed and replaced MANY pulse generators. Find the coupler, learn how to test them, allow your bike to fail and immediately test. You can quite easily verify or eliminate them as being an issue.

You're getting sidetracked by your charging system. It's a separate system. the BATTERY powers the ignition...your charging system keeps the battery charged...that's really the only relationship they have. You can completely eliminate the charging system and the bike will keep running until the battery voltage drops to the point where it can't power up the ignition.

 

Sorry boss, but I have to disagree. The 86 and 87 VFR 700 and 750 all operate from the same R/R and PG system.

The R/R has two plugs on it. One plug has 3 yellow. One plug has 2 Red and 2 green.

Plug for 3 yellows are the contact points along the stator which accept the charge when the rotor is turning within the generator. Contact points are 1, 3, 2, 3, 1, 3, 2, 3 etc etc. This provides 14.4V to your R/R

The other plug, with the 2 Red and 2 Green... The two Green are grounds. One ground for the Rectifier, so you dont blow the fuse in your Starter Solenoid, and one ground for your built in regulator, so you wont electrify your Ignition/Key switch. One red powers your Starter solenoid, (This is the one which accepts 12.2V, and provides feedback power to continuously charge your battery... The other red goes to the Ignition/Key switch, and provides power for your CDI, horn, sparking units, etc etc... (I.e. the 2.2V required to keep the bike running while operating.


You are somewhat correct about if you take away the charging system, the bike will keep running. BUT this requires all the wires to at least keep continuinity. If you disconnect the R/R completely you will not get it started.

The Battery only supports the ability to provide AMPS to hit the starter solenoid , which powers the starter motor, and has enough charge to overcome the friction of the internal motor and turn it against the transmission. ~12.6V will be enough power to provide enough cranking AMPS to do this. The battery is ONLY connected to the ignition via the wiring through the regulator, which is built internal within the R/R. Why is this? Because your bikes CDI (Brain), does not require any AMPS at all... yup, 0. Matter of fact, if you do hit it with any, you will fry it.

 

I checked out My R/R wiring and I had not ground the R/R. whoops. big mistake. Also I was unlcear there, but I can run my bike without the R/R in place. I have done this before.

I went and tested my battery last night and it has less than a 1/4 life left. I think that it might be 4 months old if that. its a really good westco battery too so maybe my R/R had something to do with that there. I dunno, but I will for sure be fixing that before any other issues are tackled.

does the R/R output go straight to the battery?

 

As 199Q has found out and stated in the previous post...yes, you can completely remove the R/R and the bike will still run...of course until battery VDC drops to the point where the ignition won't operate.

Sorry Ghost, but I think you're also wrong about the R/R 'powering' the the main fuse part of the starter relay. Nearly every Honda starter relay I've tested is powered by the big positive cable directly from the battery. That's right...it's got two functions. It provides high current to the starter motor when the starter relay is closed...AND it provides battery voltage to the main fuse holder section of the relay (internally). You can pull the red wire that goes to the R/R out of the coupler and you'll still have power up to the ignition switch and yes I've done this.

Also, Ghost...in an earlier post you mention the wiring from the pulse gen to the R/R. I think you meant AC generator...the pulse gens I'm talking about are part of ignition...and go directly to the CDI. I think your intentions are good, but IMO...you're making this far harder than it has to be.

199Q let me make this as easy as I can...don't necessarily trust expensive battery testers. Put a good charge in your battery...ride your bike around for 10 minutes, put the VDC meter probes on your battery terminal while your bike is running...rev it up to approx 4000RPM...you should read around 13.3 to 15.0 VDC. If so your charging is operative. Leave the probes on your battery, turn the bike off...then back on and spin the starter...If your VDC stays over 10.5 approx. while your starter is spinning, it's a pretty sure sign your battery is servicable. Think back to when your original problem occured...if your starter spun with 'gusto' after your bike quit running, you'll almost certainly find the problem somewhere besides the battery or the charging system.

Now...the pulse generators JD mentioned...and that I referred to as having replaced many...are kinda like electromagnetic points (not totally correct but easiest way to conceptualize). They are strategically placed to be excited by a boss on a flywheel, or I think in this case the starter clutch while the crank is spinning. They emit a small (around 1 volt) pulse to the CDI to indicate crank position and to elicit the plugs to spark. On Honda's the wires usually end up in a three or four pin coupler with blue/white, yellow/white, and one or two green whites. They best way to test them is via resistance...typically around a few hundred ohms. If this is the problem, they will only fail the test after your bike also fails, so you gotta test them immediately.

 

Hi,
I am back to this matter. Yesterday I had again the same problem : half tank full of gasoline but the engine begins to die as if it was out of gas. I tried the solution described by squirrelman : a jumper wire to by-pass the fuel pump relay. Ten minutes to perform this and now absolutely no more problems. The engine runs in a perfet way, idle is constant and...good ride !
Thanks to squirrel and other guys who indicated to check the fuel cut off relay. It is a little component that can stop your VFR.
Lamps,
Carmine

 

True...and good for you CARMINE. I've done the same to 'fail' a cut relay and it's worth a try in this case. In my experience though it's not nearly as common a failure as pulse generators or the fuel pump itself. As easy as it is to disconnect a coupler and do a quick restistance check I think I'd go there first. My next move (after a quick spark test to eliminate coils, switches and CDI as well), would be to do exactly as you did. Seems like the big problem is the intermittent nature of issues like this...of course everything tests good until it fails.

The point I would like to make is...when you suspect fuel supply problems on a Honda it's a good idea to inspect the spark because that little cut relay is activated by the ignition system actively producing spark. So you can spend alot of time troubleshooting fuel, when the problem is ignition.

 

Ok, dizzy
I agree with you. The important is to share knowledge and/or experience made "on the road".
Have nice and safe rides !
Lamps !
Carmine

 

Dizzy,
fair enough comments. I 100% understand how and what the electrical system, fuel system does for an engine. As I have said before I am an automotive engineer. I cleaned out two bikes to nothing but blocks, and rebuilt one. I was forced to rewire one bike completely. Perhaps I did something wrong, perhaps I fixed the original wiring, (the grounding systems is severely lacking... I dunno. but when I remove the R/R from my bike, and break the ground circuit, and the bike eventually fails... same as the engines "alternator" as its really performing, is no longer connected to the power source. Same as an alternator in your car... I wouldn’t advise to disconnect it, and try to drive home.

You are correct, I did make the wrong reference to Pulse Gen and not AC.
Sorry about that.

I read a lot of posts about people and their R/R's going out, or the wiring getting hot, and or connectors are melting. My bike doesn none of that. Perhaps I just learned something about the grounding system from Honda back in the late 80's. Doesnt sound like its working right.

***Time lapsed 3 days***
Matter of fact, now I am convinced more than ever, the bikes aren’t wired correctly. I didn’t post straight off, since I didn’t want to make things any harder, and I wanted to get more facts. I spoke with an engine development engineer this morning. He reviewed the wiring schematic I used to build my bike. I was assured my wiring is correct. All be it, he did say, I was a bit over protective of the gage wiring I used, and the 2 loops per connection, he said was excessive.

I know this looks ho-key but I found this quite a long time ago, and it has helped me. Perhaps it will help others too.



I will say this. If a bikes R/R is not working, where is all the voltage going? If wiring is hot, or plugs are warmer than the engine, and or exceeding the Tg (Glass Transition point of plastic), its an indicator that the resistance of the circuit is not correct. Typically this is an indicator that either neutral, or a negative ground is making intermittent contact, or is not connected at all.

Id like to better inform everyone on what each does. In the diagram, you can see the Regulator and the Rectifier are two separate items. This, in fact, is still true. Motorcycles , ATV’s and some lawn mowers all operate with a combined unit… called a R/R by the moto-heads that work on them. The below material is NOT my opinion, its reference material from US Patent 46886445. Please feel free to look it up if anyone doesn’t believe me.

The battery, has only two wires. Red. Positive, and Black…Negative. If the black wire is only about 4 inches and is connected to the frame, and the Red wire is about 6 inches and is only connected to the Starter solenoid/ (fused), how would you suppose the power is fed back to the battery from the R/R? cause its not the Black Negative cable attached to the frame, I assure all of you. As indicated above, it’s a “feedback” of AMPS that charge your battery. And as I stated before, it’s the amount of Volts we are concerned about here… not AMPS.

I do need to make one correction which Dizzy pointed to…

Yes, the R/R is part of the charging system and is designed to charge your battery with AMPS. In addition to that, it’s also designed to assist and keep the bike running by the continuous supply of power via the Volts. Disconnect the battery from the engine, and it will eventually die. Disconnect the R/R and cut off the AMPS and Volts supply, and the same thing will happen.

Sorry for high jackin your thread there. Lets get back to your problem.

This actually sounds very good. Fortunately I made mention of excessive voltage just above. If a R/R puts out too much AMPS and Volts, your new battery could be junk now. To answer your question, yes, and no. The output is a load feedback to the battery circuit only. There are diodes in the wiring to your CDI to prevent damage, (if its wired and grounded properly).

I’d go for that new battery first, then do more “metering” of your R/R when you get the battery, now that you’re better grounded.

Good luck! Keep us informed.

 

Guys! all good information.


I will look through all the stuff tonight, I crashed really hard on my dirt-bike yesterday, and so I have been pretty beat up. BUT! I now have a ton more time to work on my bike because I wont be racing this weekend. :biggrin: and I certainly wont be doing a ton of physical activities either!

I will make an excel spreadsheet tonight of all the issues mention to check. that will give me a better method, Plus I have the FSM, and I will be working through that as well. As I mentioned before it does not run, and that is either an unrelated problem, or a new one totally.


I figure with the spreadsheet I will be able to figure out what Is wrong, step by step. and Fix it!


Thanks guys! a ton more knowledge that helps so much! Stay posted and I will put up something tonight.

 

This site help me allot

Hey

I give this site up to anyone who has problem with their sparks here you go:http://users.rcn.com/kochc/moto/spark/ig_repair.html. Hope this helps

Best regards

Gunnar

 

wellll, I guess I cant upload my spreadsheet, however I will copy it here so everyone can follow my logic and tell me if there are problems with it here.

the bike cranks over, but does not start. just take a look and tell me what you think.

Thanks!

Check - VFR


Test R/R for input side continuity.
if ok, rewire and add R/R case ground.

Check Cranking Voltage.
IF no start, and or battery below 10.7 volts, jump from car, ( with motor off!!!)
if no start, check for fuel flow/ fuel pump working.
No pump run check for voltage at the fuel pump.


If fuel flow, check for spark.
no spark, check resistance of pulse generators.

that's what I have so far. I am a very methodical person, and I need a list to work from when I troubleshoot, otherwise It will take much longer. (been there done that!)


if my r/r was over charging the crap out of the battery, what would be the next item on the list down the line to fail, the ign switch?

 

typically just the battery. its quite rare for anything else to get zapped if your battery is overcharged. Overcharged battery really only messes up the "rechargeability" <--is that a word? and the life of the battery is significantly drained. There "should be" diodes in your wiring to prevent damage to your other components.

 

Ghost...I can agree with your previous post. Honda does have a bit of 'grounding' issue on this bike. Matter of fact, the recent recall on late model '02-05' VFR's includes a subharness and different wiring (mainly ground).

Heat IS the enemy in charging systems. I long ago lost count of the 'roasted' stators and 'barbecued' 3 pin stator to R/R couplers I've repaired and/or replaced. The battery is key IMO. The charging system has to work harder (more current into) to keep a weak battery up...or try to charge a good battery that is simply discharged and more current is more heat. I really try to stress NOT to use the bike as a battery charger...if the battery needs charging, don't 'jump' it and go for a ride to charge...charge it first!! I've found that one occasion when this is done can be enough to melt wiring and plastic connectors. A battery that chronically goes flat prematurely or won't respond to charging should be replaced.

That being said...I think that many batteries are replaced needlessly. A good charge and the test of time is the true indicator of battery strength. So...I certainly don't intend to discount the importance of an operative charging system.

So 199Q...are you saying you lost spark completely? If so, troubleshoot IGNITION. Have you verified proper restistance on the pulse generators? Can you post your procedure for doing so and your readings? If so we can move on to the next thing. What makes you think your bike is overcharging? If it is, that's kinda rare and at least in the short term not enough to cause a 'no spark' condition so skip past it for now. Your next step is to go directly to the CDI...unplug the connector...find the solid green wire and make sure you have a good ground there. If so, turn your key on and check for battery VDC on the black white wire (positive probe) and the green ground you just verified (negative probe). Report your findings and we can go from there.

 

uhmmm,
I think that we, VFR Guys, know how a VFR runs better than Honda's engineers...
LAMPS to all VFR owners !
Carmine

 

just a small update:

last night I got the bike running. Not sure of the problem yet, but I correctly wired the R/R and it charges 15v at idle all the way up to 5k. this weekend I will test the fuel pump.

 

Actually, that doesn't right to me. You should not have 15V at idle, it should be just battery voltage or slightly higher. It should come up to ~14V around 1500rpm and slowly increase from there.

 

Yeah...something's weird. The only way I've seen results that consistent over RPM is when the R/R has failed or has lost power or ground...and then it's a low reading...such as 12.2 and slowly dropping.

It's never a bad idea to throw a meter on the battery and make sure the bike is charging. But if your original description of the problem was accurate, I don't even know why you're going here. It's like scratching your butt when the nose itches.

 

ok, well maybe the R/R is bad? I dunno here. I am at a loss.

I agree, however in this thread others mentioned to check the charging system. So I did. and it now looks like I have a possible problem. I agree its not my main problem here, but I am worried I may have found a new issue.

 

You don't need the R/R for the bike to run briefly off a properly charged battery, so just unplug it for test purposes.

Also unplug or pull headlight fuse. pull out all fuses except "Ignition" for test purposes. jump the starter relay contacts to spin the starter motor.

If something is sucking energy, your system voltage may be falling below minimum level needed to generate spark voltage...