Power Comander III EX or Not

Guy's what is the diff between the Power Comander III USB and the Power Comander III USB EX?

 

According to the power commander web site the Power Commander III is for racing motorcycles only...and the EX will comply with California's emissions laws. I just ordered my PCIII(not the EX) to go with my Leo Vince slip ons I'm hoping it will smooth the power curve out.

 

Ditto, I've also got the PCIII minus the EX and It has been worth every penny. Just make sure you get o2 eliminator aswell( 6th gens hate the PCIII with out it!)

 

I was discussing getting the o2 eliminator last night with my roommate and he convinced me not to get one. what's the difference between with and without it?

 

In order to meet emissions standards, the VFR ECU uses data from the 02 sensors in the exhaust stream to lean out the mixture under certain steady-state throttle conditions.

For me the result was an annoying "pause" (flat spot caused by an overly lean mixture) when I rolled on the throttle from about 5k. Pulling the connectors off the sensors and putting a resistor across the leads fools the ECU. On my bike this eliminated the flat spot and I found it a very nice improvement.

There is no reason not to at least try this. You won't damage the ECU and can easily undo the mod if you don't like the results. You can either buy the eliminators, or you can do the same by getting a pack of resistors (can't recall the value offhand) from Radio Shack and do it yourself. The only difference is about $40, your choice. There are plenty of threads about this both here and on "that other" VFR forum.

 

if you ever plan on having a custom map done, you will have to use the o2 elims, the bike cannot be dyno tuned without them. (the pciii is a waste of money if you don't ever plan on getting your own maps done.)

 

+1

You NEED to get it tuned. Always figure a dyno run into the purchase cost of a PCIII USB. Looking at around $500 all said and done depending on what you get your PCIII for and how much a few hours on the dyno cost you.


You can try the maps posted on power commander's website but even if you have the same model bike, filter, and exhaust, every engine will wear differently to an extent and the conditions you normally use your bike in may be different and you might not be getting the best map possible for your specific machine.

 

It is scientifically impossible for one map to work for every bike and combination.

 

It's true that the O2 sensors must be eliminated if you put in a PCIII, but the statement above is :bs:

Thanks to Henry Ford and all the manufacturing expertise that's been developed since, every VFR engine is essentially the same, plus-or-minus some small deviation. I'd bet it's on the order of 1-2%. They're so similar that every single one of them comes from the factory with the same fuel map programmed into the ECU.

So, you go out and buy a 2Bros system, a K&N air filter, elminate the O2 sensors, and take the bike to your local tuner. $250-300 later you've got the perfect map for your VFR. And, within 1-2%, every other similarly equiped VFR. Upload your map, share it with your buddy who just bought the same bits, and, voila (!), he gets the same performance. Within 1-2%, of course, since manufacturing variations do have an effect.

If you want to get that last couple of percent from your bike, by all means, take it to the tuner. But if you have a similar configuration to the legions of VFR owners out there, save your money and use the downloaded maps.

Personally, if I were a tuner, I'd be pissed, but that's progress I guess...

 

<shakes his head, smiles, and then determines it's not worth explaining> .......you're so right, chickwebb, I don't have a clue!....... <smiles and thinks, there, that was much easier>

 

Uh oh...think you kinda dissed NCB.

Any map is only as good as the time and effort put into it. The downloadable maps work OK...that's not to say they can't be improved for specific applications.

The dyno is definitely part of the equation. That being said, I've ridden "dynoed" bikes that ran like crap...and were slow on the track. There is also the "seat of the pants" part of the equation... which may include drivability concerns as well as lap times.

Part of the fun of having a PCIII is that it puts YOU in control. It can be tweaked for personal preference, fuel milage, lots 'o different factors.

 

Even if I had the same exact mods on my bike as another and they rolled out the factory together there are still variables that may justify a custom map. In my case living at 5000 ft above sea level in CO would make a big difference in the tuning.

 

The downloadable maps do work OK - they probably get you to within a few percentage points of perfect, assuming similar mods - and that is a big reason why the PCIII USB has been so successful. It's certainly true that if you want your bike to be perfect, or you want to address some personal preference, you can do better with on the dyno. My point was that you don't have to, though, and I think there are plenty of people out therw who would agree.

Being in control is good, if you know what you're doing. If you don't you can make a mess. I think my dad once told me something to the effect of "If you want to keep tinkering with that bike, start tinkering with that bike" Sage advise, IMHO.

 

Fuel injected bikes like the VFR have a baro sensor that the ECU uses to adjust the mixture for altitude variations. I don't know how well the VFRs ECU does this, but I've gone from sea level to over 7000 ft and back again in a single day and other than the loss of power that you'd expect, had no issues whatsover. Where's that 6th Torocharger when you need it?

The PCIII makes it's mods to the map in terms of "deltas" from the signals that the ECU sends out (+1 @ 5000-6000 RPM, +2 @ 6000-7000, etc.) so you should still see the improvements that it makes at any altitude.

I expect there may be slight (a few percentage points) differences that you could iron out on a dyno, but II haven't seen any data that would suggest I'm wrong. Perhaps havcar has some dyno charts that he can share.

 

This is great, keep it coming <PGM-FI>

 

I agree 100%, every bike is differant. The point of this thread is whether a O2 eliminator is needed, or not!

Chickweb: Nobody is discussing HP gains as the sole reason for these mods, it's more about getting the bike to run as well as possible depending on the owners needs and desires.

Secondly, The O2 elim. is specifically needed for a 6th gen VFR because of the VFRs' unique ECU. While the ECU makes some adjustments, it slips up constantly with a non O2 elim. Mine ran so rich after the PCIII install that I would reek of fumes after a ride.

I'm not sure how to scan and post my dyno readings but I'll figure it out for you CHICK. Again, it's not about the sole gain of HP, but my curves will show you that through proper mapping, my bike went from 78 HP to 101 HP(*slightly more than the 1% or 2% some are talking about.) Thats at 5600ft of altitude. So yes, my bike was needlessly suffering because of the environmont in which I live, and the PCIII with an 02 elim. eliviated those 78HP issues much more than the stock mapping alone could have accomplished!

Yeah,I know it's only 101 HP, But that's an accomplishment for the 5600 feet of elavation! Sometimes 14,000 ft of elavation, Which the stock mapping allows for, but also causes the bike to run like sh!t.

Thank god for the 02 elim!!!

 

I think everyone has morphed it into that ( I went back and looked, novel idea, but effective) . Very little of the information provided is actually worth anything. I know I'll get flamed for saying that, but I can tell by the responses that there is a large amount of misunderstanding concerning the Honda PGM-FI, O2 Elims and Custom Mapping. I have had the privilege of working with some of the best tuners in the United States and was trying to share some information that I have learned from, or been taught by, these people. I now see that was a complete waste of time. My bad, enjoy your rides.

 

On the contrary Norcal, your observations are respected and agreed with, at least on my part.

I've worked with some good peole aswell, and have come to the conclusion that not all on this site are as edified as one would hope.

I believe that your schooling was well worth your efforts and does, obviously, show well. Aprreciation on the other hand, is not always realized by the common.

I may have inadvertantly offended you ,or it could be that I'm misreading your comment, but you should know that my intent was in complete agreement your own.

I suppose I could or should explain the mechanics in more detail but I, like you, am not inclined to waste much time yelling information to the unlistened and arguementative.

 

I think dizzy hit the nail on the head. The downloadable maps can be a "baseline" from which to improve if one is so inclined. Or just to download and use as is, if spending the time and money with a tuner and a dyno is not "your thing".
havcar since you live close to me, I would like to know who you suggest for some dyno tuning for my 5th gen. Ive been riding waay tooo long without a PCIII and a good tune.

 

I disagree. Ran my 2006 with their free map and the surging was mitigated and the VTEC transition was smoothed out considerably. Not saying a custom map isn't worth the $$, but there is value to the PCIII even w/o an expensive custom map.