Is Harley D going???

It takes time to change peoples perceptions of products. Harley has been building world class motorcycles for years now, but yet many people still think they build inferior quality products. Should they diversified their product more .....yes, but could anyone see this downturn coming to this extent....NO. Harley will survive this lean time.
As for you UAW bashing foreign car buyers I hope your job is outsourced . The unions are not perfect, but they have changed work rules to outwork their non-union counter parts. I built world class SUV'S at the Janesville WI GM Plant (Tahoe,Suburban,Yukons) in my eight years we averaged over a 5% productivity gain each year. In 2007 we had an 11% productivity gain alone.
GM put their eggs in the money basket and like many corporations they are too focused on short term profits neglecting the future. Imagine if they had not ruined the country on Diesels IE 79-83 diesel caddys and oldsmobles. once again GM and Ford are begining to build great cars again , but it will take a while to change that perception. G8, CTS, Malibu , and the new midsize SUV'S all beat the competion hands down.

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Didn't they just buy MV Augusta a couple of months ago :tsk:

 

HD is not going to go out of business. Even if the company is faltering, the name itself has way to much marketing power, so some rich entity would buy it if it comes to that & they probably wouldn't even need to halt the production lines. 2 of my cousins work in the HD factory in York, PA so I would be sad for them if they lost their jobs.

The motorcycle market is in a general slump. Every single OEM has lost sales in 2008, so how could HD be any different? One thing that needs to happen & happen very soon, is HD needs to develop a modern liquid cooled VTwin. Tightening emmission standard have sounded the trumpet for air cooled motors. In about 10, 15 years tops, there will not be any aircooled motors legal for sale in the US. HD had something with the Revolution motor (VRod) & the ignorant faithful promptly ignored it. There is only so long you can sell outdated, obsolete, low quality junk before the market is saturated.

Just like I've said about Honda Powersports & GM & Ford & Chrysler, etc... the designers need to start designing what needs to be designed, not want dumbasses want to buy just because their friend said so. A perfect example is the state of the American pickup. I want a new truck. I've been to every truck dealer within 50 miles of my house. Guess what? EVERY truck is either a loaded-to-the-gills 4WD, Crew Cab that stickers way too close to $50K or a stripped down V6 plumbers truck. The ignorant companies (GM, Ford, Dodge, Toyota, Nissan) concentrated their entire efforts on useless yuppy fahsion statement trucks & ignored the guys that actually need a truck. Now, I can't find any truck I would buy anywhere & no one will let me order one. The closest Toyota dealer said they don't do special orders at all. As a result, they lost how many billions in the last 18 months?

If you stop & think about it, BMW is the single only company in the US market that has it's shit together. BMW designs their bikes without regards to fads & charges a premium for them & gets that premium. Unless Honda gives me the VFR that I want, almost assuredly, a BMW will be the next bike I buy. BMW cars cost significantly more than other cars in the same class yet BMW gets sticker for just about everything they sell & for some models, they have a waiting list.

Modern times are upon us & we as consumers have no one to blame but ourselves since we did nothing to prevent the catastrophe at hand.

KC-10 FE out...
lane: :usa2:

 

KC Masterpiece is back!

BMW's new sportbike the S1000RR looks bad ass!

I love how you can roll into a Japanese dealership and they sell everything from small 50cc dirtbikes for the kids, to sportbikes, crusisers and everything in between.

I roll down to the local HD shop in Seaford, Delaware and what do they have? All Cruisers with a few Buells thrown in. Generally a Blast, Ulysses and the new 1125. That's it! No full on dirt bike, no small beginner bikes for the kiddies, not even an HD scooter.

Lame excuse that HD didn't "see" this coming. C'mon folks, they didn't diversify and are now reaping the rewards.

BZ

 

Yes, and oddly Massimo Tamburini (SP?) has left MV too after the buy out.

BZ

 

Personally I'm in favor of Holiday Bowl buying out HD. :heh:

 

Who new these economic times would hit, Last few years HD sold one bike after another. If people are buying it why change it? It's like the SUV market, people came out and purchased these gas eating machines. If the demand is for a Hog, why try to sell them a scooter? If HD saved a slush fund when they where selling a crazy amount of bikes and down size due to the current economic downturn, they would be fine today. Hind sight is 20-20.

 

It’s not about changing as much as diversifying your brand.

Yeah, the HD Hog and SUV craze made cash hand over fist, but if that’s ALL you sell. When the bottom drops out how can you logically ask for a bailout?

Lets take Suzuki, they sell the GSXR 600, 750, 1000’s like hot cakes, but they still make dirt bikes, cruisers and one of the top selling scooters (Bergman). They know the day will probably come when Kawasaki, Honda, or someone else will produce a bike that will de-thrown the Gixxer series.

One would think HD would take the “cradle to grave” marketing strategy to its fullest. I mean after all they sell a “lifestyle” don’t they?

“Hey HD fans, see the new dirt bike series we came out with. Now get your 5 year old riding on the local dirt track!

“Hey, too old to drive a big cruiser now that you are 70, check out the 30cc scooter we make so you can ride to the store and to your local bridge games on Wednesdays”.

“Hey all you crotch rocket guys, see the new inline four 700 cc bike e came out with? Yeah, we know it looks pretty much like a GSXR, but this thing is torquey as hell with its killer mid-range and it’s comfortable to ride on the street or the track, all for the introductory price of $7,500 bucks! We’ll be assembling these right here in the good ol US of A at our York, PA plant and working with track day organizations so we can offer free demo rides! In addition, they are such a knock off of Japanese innovation that your local mechanics and shade tree guys can figure out how to mod them yourselves!”

“That’s Harley for you folks! You can start riding one at age 5 till you go to the grave”

Brand loyalty at it finest!


Every year, in every MSF class I teach, I get asked: “Why don’t you get a Harley”? My answer: “HD doesn’t make a bike that fits my riding needs”.

BZ

 

HD will not go under. There are too many people who buy HD simly because it is an HD. HD knows their customers and have provided a product their customers want to buy at a price their customers are willing to pay. Most of us here simply are not HD's customers. Some have complained that HD has not made products for entry-level, off-road, sport, etc. Of course they haven't. HD has not made anything but cruisers since the 70's, (Aermacchi) and those were not even built by HD.

I'm from a very non-union, at-will employment state so please enlighten me. If most union workers are good workers and are happy to get fair pay for their work, why are unions necessary? Shouldn't the worker who is willing to do the best work for money get and keep the job? And if someone is not doing what they are paid to do, shouldn't the be let go?

BTW, I just heard Fiat is interested in Chrysler. I'll be waiting for the Valentino Rossi edition Viper.

 

Seriously, How would they diversify? They did that with the Vrod and there's not one true blue HD lover that thinks that bike is a HD. They don't "sound" like a Harley, they don't "look" like a Harley, and they don't "ride" like a Hurley. The same goes for the Buell. I only think I have ever heard a Harley owner say about a Buell is that, "If I had to have a sport bike, I guess it would have to be a Buell cause I don't buy Jap junk." One of my coworkers is a big HD rider. Him and his wife both own HD's and would never consider buying anything else. That is what HD market is and they have done their job in continuing to cater to that market. That market share doesn't want HD scooter, an liquid cooled cruiser, or any type bike that isn't a cruiser. This is the same crowd of buyers that in one breath will say they buy American quality but then says that Victory is junk. This is their market and nothing will change that. And there is nothing they will put on their showroom floors that will bring a different crowd of buyers to their market. Everyone knows that most foreign bike owners wouldn't even think about owning a HD for many many reasons. And even if they had different offerings other than just cruisers it wouldn't attract much more of a sale percentage of the market they already have.

To be honest, I dislike Harley's. They serve me no purpose and I can't understand why anyone buys them. My MSF course instuctor was a long time Gold Wing rider and one day he said that he needed to own a Harley before he died. He firgured he had gotten all of his long trips out of his system so he didn't need the Gold Wing anymore. So he picked up a Harley for cruising the country side following his wife on a Gold Wing. He bought it because it says HD on it. I lost a little bit of respect for him after that little piece of information. I have never in my life bought something because of who it was made by. And I can't for the life of me understand that thought process. I didn't buy the VFR because it was made by Honda. I bought it because I like what the bike does.

I would also like to say that I have enjoyed this thread in all aspects. Everyone came to the table with great points and it has been a very good read all the way. I applaud everyone for their posts in this thread! Keep up the good work guys! Make my day at work a little easier to manage.

 

Titanium said:

“That is what HD market is and they have done their job in continuing to cater to that market. That market share doesn't want HD scooter, an liquid cooled cruiser, or any type bike that isn't a cruiser. This is the same crowd of buyers that in one breath will say they buy American quality but then says that Victory is junk. This is there market and nothing will change that. And they is nothing they will put on their showroom floors that will bring a different crowd of buyers to their market”.


That is the exactly what I’m attacking brother. For comparison, any squid (and there are a lot of them in Delaware) who rides a GSXR, if you went up to them and asked: “Would you ride a Suzuki Bergman scooter”? They’d laugh their asses off and say “No way”. But when they went to the dealership to buy the gixxer 1000 they’ll ruin by lowering and stretching it (or crashing it) what was their? A couple Bergman scooters for sale.

Suzuki knows the Ricky Racers want a gixxer, so they market to them. But Suzuki knows the market is SOOO much bigger than squid boyz. They don’t care and make other two wheeled vehicles as a result.

A company needs to have the balls to make new and innovative stuff and if it makes their customers mad, Oh well, because the market is always changing. I’d say it’s a fine line. I think we’d all agree Honda seems to be doing whatever it wants, without regard to what the customers think. The DN-01 is proof of that. But Honda will eventually swing back and give us what we want. They just went a little too far.

If you talk to any V-rod owner, they really love their bike. They love because its HD of course, but they really relish in the fact that bike is packed full of technology to match the Japanese ‘power cruisers’. Now when they pull up the a V-Max, they are now equals…well almost LOL!

BZ

 

I was at the Ace Hardware (in one of my cages) recently when a guy on a V-Rod was just saddling up to leave. I told him it was a nice bike, and he thanked me and told me about all the power mods he had. He certainly was a different kind of HD owner, and he wasn't thinking a bit about custom paint or bigger bags. He loved his bike for what it was, appreciated what it could do, and understood its limits. I can respect that.

Perhaps HD will continue to reach out into new markets and win more fans that are looking for the HD tradition and "lifestyle" but with a different kind of machine.

 

Regardless of what I said earlier about being a Job Stewart and a Union Brother, I would not say I was neccessarily a strong union person. I stand behind the Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) process. That process fits in exactly where you lead to in your view here. I do believe the Union process is neccessary to keep things on an even playing field. Very much along the same lines as our court systems keep law enforcement honest in our society. And very much like our military services keep our countries safe. If counter alternatives are not there, this leads to the opportunity for abuse. If the union movement was not there, I do believe that a substantial portion of companies would revert back to taking advantage of the worker, especially in times such as this.

The CBA Process is as near to perfect as we can get in today's environment. What I do and have said, is there are many union brothers and sisters out there that need to wake up and realize that they are bound by the same CBA as the companies that employ them.

If our societies would accept binding arbitration on a routine basis, then maybe there would not be a need for unions. But we are not there.

I don't expect to change too many attitudes about union vs non union here. I am middle of the road. Most are not. Most are strong union or strong management. I guess I stand the risk of being shat upon by all sides on this one.

Ride on my fellow scooter hooters. And if it tickles you fancy, by one of dem dare dam HDs

 

I did not think about the union acting in a checks & balances manner. That makes sense. I know there are workers rights laws in effect, but I also know that big bussiness gives to those that write the laws.

I love my VFR, but I sure would like a big ol' Street Glide for some long distance slow moving adventures!

 

Randy- I wish I had a better understanding of the inner workings of Unions. See I live in a Commonwealth here in the States and we have what is called a "Right to Work". Unions have little or no impact on things in this commonwealth. I have in the past had some electricians that worked for me that were part of a union. I really don't have any understanding of how these unions worked in our commonwealth. See, here it is legal for an employer to fire you without just cause. Plus you are bound by the companies employee handbook that you must sign before you are employed with a company. If you don't agree with any part of the book, then some where else to work. At anytime your employer can make changes to the book and again you must sign off that you accept the changes or adds or find a new place to work. And seriously, a company can pretty put anything they want into their employee handbook as long as it doesn't violent any Federal Labor Laws. I know little bits and pieces of information about unions but mostly around here you hear about how bad they are. I'm thinking I going to need to educate myself on them as with the government we have right now, it may become easier for workforces to unionize. At least, that is a common thought around here.

 

The unfortunate thing is, there is the strong mentality out there that the union must take the company for everything they can. True unionism, if you trace it back to its origins, is, simply put, not that way. The union was to bargain on the behalf of the worker to get a fair CBA. Fair pay for fair work. Once that is in place, the Job Steward should protect that CBA. Sometimes that means to tell his union brother/sister, that he/she may be wrong. If agreement between the union worker and the company cannot be reached, then it is taken to the next step, negotiation, and finally to arbitration. And our courts are there to enforce the findings of arbitration.

It is really a fairly good system if all would look at it objectively and fairly. But thanks 15dollar. We all look at things from a different light from time to time and your thoughts are very much as important as mine.

 

I can't say I fully understand your system either. Sounds intriguing. But to understand unionism, you may have to dig deep. Don't neccessarily take the word of a union leader or a management person. Their point of view could be tainted. Dig deep in your research. I believe you may come up with the same understanding that I do. It really does not matter if you are union or management. Fairness is neutral.

And here, in a non union position anyways, you can be fired or let go without cause. Even considering labour laws. But if you are, then there are remedies. Again, our court system is there to bring this to finalization.

 

I should go into politics. I could be the Presidential Prime Minister of the UFRR...United Federal Republic of Randy

 

Holy Crap Bubba... You hit this one over the fence into the next county.

I too get the snide commments & rolled eyes when the HD pinheads roll into my MSF classes on their HD's. "Nice Jap scrap." is usually the insult of choice. I reply the same to each & every one of them. If you can outride me on that HD, then & only then do you get the priveledge of insulting me & my bike on my range. Not a single one has ever been able to show me up so, needless to say, they usually shut up & mumble something about HD's aren't for going fast. "Really? I wasn't aware."

KC-10 FE out...
lane: :usa2:

 

I vote for you to be the new HD CEO.
Yes, HD did put all their eggs in the same basket.