Wet Traction Limits

Okay, thanks to the folks who posted answers to my serious question about why the clutch lever is longer than the brake lever. Enlightening. I agree the reason has to do with "leverage", but wonder if it isn't also a way to counteract the effect of the earth's rotation, or maybe to neutralize the influence of its magnetic field on the directional stability of the bike.

Here's another question. I've now racked up a massive 2,200 km since the snow melted and can't say how much fun this bike is. Really, I can't :thumbsup:. The integration I thought I might have had on rare occasions when I rode many years ago, is coming back nicely, and the machine and I are now diving smoothly into corners, together, thankfully. I figured out fast shifting is a lot better than lurching and wearing out the clutch, though I don't want to appear squid-like. The bike is laterally nimble but still stable with after-burners on.

However, there is one very big problem. I have no idea what kind of turning traction I have on wet pavement :rain: and am damned if I can figure out how to figure this out. I practice emergency braking in dry conditions and push it to the point where I wonder if the back will ever lift off the ground. Maybe the Dunlops are slipping and ABS is kicking in. Who knows. When I hit the brakes on wet pavement, stopping power is considerably better than I expect (though I haven't yet reached the ABS zone), but I can't translate that into a measure of lateral traction, or can I?

There are many variables (speed, road surface, amount of water, tire pattern and wear, temperature, etc.) but is there anyway of estimating how much lateral traction there is without finding out the hard way? Right now, every turn on wet is agonizingly tentative and a lot slower that it has to be because... well.... because... well, okay, I'll admit it, I find turning on wet pavement very scary . For now, I use the speed limit as a guide. Is this very way too conservative? Is wet traction some percentage of dry traction? What's opinions are out there on the maximum safe speed on a wet corner with an indicated speed of, say, 80 kph? Is it 50, 80, or 180? So many questions, so little time...

 

if you ask me, I evaluate each turn individually as to what extent I can lean the bike over. It all depends on the current conditions. Road surface type, debris, temperature, tires, bike load(weight), traffic, etc. for each turn in the road so I really can't answer that question. I've heard some manufacturers claim numbers in the mid to upper 40's as far as degree of lean is concerned on wet pavement...but that's useless to me on a typical michigan public road.


The warning signs on curves are for cars (well all traffic, but they're based on cars). I know from experience in driving tractor trailer rigs that they can't even come close to those speeds and I'd imagine the bikes should have no problem exceeding by far IF the roads are clean and good conditions. But to answer your question...you can't have a set figure or number. It all depends on conditions like you've mentioned.

 

if you listen, you can hear the tires talking to your backside.....you will know

 

Soundmaster has some good points !

It is & there is sooooo many varibles mostly with road sufaces, 1st rain, been raining for a week, tyres, load, just to many things to work into on paper other than your experiance & how much chance your willing to take.

I ride all year long, & only thing that stops me from riding is ice on the road.

But what I do in my lean/accelerating/braking in a Spring/Summer rain vs a fall winter rain/snow is a big differance.

Spring/Summer & I'm on the Sprint with ABS & RoadSmart Tyres (Dunlop) in the rain, I probably ride around 70% with no hesitation of dragging a knee if needed, leaving me some back up thresh hold if things go wrong.

Fall/Winter in the wet & nasty stuff plus the cold temps on D616's (Dunlop), probably push it no more than 60% with no knee dragging.

Track is a different story & ride 90% wet or dry all 4 seasons as long as I have the right tyre set up.

 

Cheers to riding year round. :thumbsup: People look at me like i'm nuts when I'm out on the bike in 26 degree Fahrenheit weather with 18" snow banks on the side of the road. I'm thinking about finally investing in some heated clothing this coming winter. I could only stand about an hour or so when it hit below 40.... but it was enough for me to commute to MSU and U of M. There was some crazy guy on a BMW adventure type bike that road no matter what at u of m. SNOW on the roads? NO PROBLEM....what a nut job. I wonder if he had studded tires or just big knobby ones...

 

After reading good points from all respondents, I believe this may very well be the best response because there is only one limiting factor to any tire in any condition...the rider. Some people can feel the road and available traction like it was their own hand touching the road. Many can't. The little voices in your head that NorcalBoy refers to are the determining factor.

That being said, riding in the rain is the single greatest way to make you a better rider. You have no choice but to be smooth which is what you need to do in the dry to be fast. I'm heading to a track day tomorrow with a chance of rain and it many ways I'm hoping it does. If you have the experience and the associated confidence, you would be very surprised at how much grip there is in the rain.

It's funny this is a topic. I have a document ready to print out to tape on my windscreen for tomorrow which says: "Ride Like It's Raining"

 

modern tires stick very well in the wet...on good pavement. Racetracks are pretty well monitored for "debris" so I wouldn't be overly cautious out there. The first time I got flagged off it was raining.
The street, however, has cars dripping oil, trucks dropping grease, smashed wildlife, slippery painted lines, manhole covers, etc. I was on an exit ramp the other day (in the rain) and some workers had put down a 10 foot square steel plate in the road to temporarily cover some hole. That thing was like greased ice.

That said...bikes slide around; get used to how it feels, if you don't do anything abrupt they usually hook back up smoothly on modern rubber.

 

I have the Continental Road Attacks on my bike & find them have a very good level of wet grip. Have taken the MSF BRC or ERC, remember the cornering exercises? Go to a parking lot when it's raining & practice. I am shocked how far over a VFR will lean on good tires in the rain. I listen to what the bike is telling me thru sounds & feel. As long as you listen, you'll be fine. Practice makes perfect.

KC-10 FE out...
lane: :usa2:

 

flameface has a good point. Line selection is very important on the street.

The cages make a 2 track with oils and fluids in the middle. Ride in one of the tracks to avoid the fluids. When making turns, set up in the inside track for the turn. This position will also allow you an escape lane while siting at stoplights/signs. Keep the bike in gear at least until 1 or 2 cars come to a stop behind you.

Trusting the tires is one of the biggest things that we have to learn, dry or wet. Too many times I see someone give up in a turn because they THINK that the tires are GONNA give up. Hang in there, don't give up 'till they do.

 

Yes, every situation is different. Road surfaces vary tremendously; oil, grit, sand, etc all play a part. How long has it been raining? All make a difference. The best advice is above...listen to the feedback the bike gives and don't freak if it slips a bit. Riding a mountain bike or an off-road MC will teach you how to be comfortable with slipping and drifting. Riding a road bicycle or roller skating will teach you how much variance there is in road surfaces...from the smoothest (and somewhat slippery) ashphalt to the rougher surfaces that have lots of grip to the roughest surfaces that have larger imperpections that can unship you.
Good luck Salamander!

 

You'll slowly learn.
Don't go hard into the first corner of the day, work your way up.
Pay attention to the bike if you get close to "the line" you may feel it drift out slightly this means your pushing to hard.

Also always have room speed wise to get out of a bad situation, sure i can drag a knee and corner hard but what if there is anti freeze, or a deer. So don't ride at the limit because the limit can change suddenly.

 

Folks, really excellent feedback and advice above. Thanks.

I'll:

- listen to the tires talking to my backside,

- get the Contis when the Dunlops wear out (was already planning that based on comments on this site and separate reviews),

- work on confidence ("don't freak if it slips a bit"),

- maintain a good safety margin on corners and while stopped, and

- increase lean angle/speed gradually.

However, I think the most important lesson here is that a loss of traction is not necessarily immediately catastrophic i.e., instantaneously zero, as in turning fast and sharp on greased ice. For some weird reason, I though it might be - I imagined one tiny slip and then sliding ass on pavement, or worse. Probably discounted the better than expected braking traction too much.

So, assuming I work up to it gradually, I should feel a little slipping, wiggle, skipping, or sideways lurching as I get close to the limit. This suggests that instantaneous loss of traction happens when you approach and pass the limit too fast to be able to do anything about it.

Just guessing...

 

If only

We could all grow into two wheels from a dirt rider's experience.

Available traction changes with conditions. What you do with the traction and any "unusual attitudes" that may develope is your riding skill. (NEVER CHOP THE THROTTLE WHEN THE BACK END BREAKS LOOSE!) Ask me how I know? ;-)

Yes, the tires will tell you, if you are listening.

What I can offer is to play with the back end first. It's no fun at all to loose the front end. So ....get into a familiar corner (one with a run off) in the wet and ride through, then accelerate hard but smoothly. Try to spin the rear just a little. You will feel it. At 8K RPM. in any gear, the VFR is pretty lively when the tires are loaded in a turn. there is only so much grip. If 80% is used up with cornering loads, you have 20% for acceleration. Give 'er 25% and see the rear end spin up a bit.

"Drifting" is not a worry.

Don't be over eager or foolish, try to learn the limits of the tires, and your riding.

Ideas only

CalG